COMMENTS:
Voted : none
That I know of. But I doubt that would stop the process from occurring.
Voted : more than 50
Hundreds, according to some. An investigation by the AP found more than 50 instances where US citizens, mostly hispanic, were deported.
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Voted : less than 20
I can't see how it would be that many. Also, what do you mean by the color of their skin? Meaning, can you expand on that.
I'm just not sure what you mean when you write "the color of their skin." The deportation process is actually pretty complex from all that I've read. Besides, you can't deport actual citizens because once they've become U.S. citizens (assuming they're not born here), their country of birth is no longer their country, so most likely, would not accept them. I think I need more information.
Being a geek, :) I researched it myself. This is a difficult one. Here is part of an article:
In a drive to crack down on illegal immigrants, the United States has locked up or thrown out dozens, probably many more, of its own citizens over the past eight years.
A months-long AP investigation has documented 55 such cases on the basis of interviews, lawsuits and documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. These citizens are detained for anything from a day to five years.
Immigration lawyers say there actually are hundreds of such cases.
It's illegal to deport U.S. citizens or detain them for immigration violations. Yet citizens still end up in detention because the system is overwhelmed, acknowledged Victor Cerda, who left Immigration and Customs Enforcement in 2005 after overseeing the system. The number of detentions overall is expected to rise by about 17 percent this year to more than 400,000, putting a severe strain on the enforcement network and legal system.
The result is the detention of citizens with the fewest resources: the mentally ill, minorities, the poor, children and those with outstanding criminal warrants, ranging from unpaid traffic tickets to failure to show up for probation hearings. Most at risk are Hispanics, who made up the majority of the cases the AP found.
"The more the system becomes confused, the more U.S. citizens will be wrongfully detained and wrongfully removed," said Bruce Einhorn, a retired immigration judge who now teaches at Pepperdine Law School. "They are the symptom of a larger problem in the detention system. . . .
Nothing could be more regrettable than the removal of our fellow citizens."
Jim Hayes, ICE director of detention and removal, said he was aware of only 10 cases of U.S. citizens being detained over the past five years. Even if combined with the cases found by the AP, "that's not an epidemic," Hayes said. He refused to identify any cases, citing privacy laws.
He added that agents investigate any claims to U.S. citizenship, but they often turn out to be false. He said U.S. citizens sometimes claim to be foreign-born, and that immigration officials never knowingly hold someone they can "definitively" determine is a citizen.
^ I know this will seem heartless of me, but I don't mean it that way. But...what do people expect? The reality is, there are too many people trying to get in under false pretenses and right now, the laws are such that coming to the country illegally is a crime and all systems in place are designed to prevent illegal immigration.
I read of a raid on a Cargill plant and literally, almost everyone was an illegal immigrant. But...they all had FAKE papers that inidicated they were actual citizens, including FALSE social security numbers. Sorry, but in a sense, that is the real problem.
Now that I've read more, it makes more sense. It's terrible because at the Federal level, they needed assistance, so they made agreements with local police forces. Apparently, at the local level, the police often use poor judgement and are often not equipped or sophisticated enough to do thorough research and investigation into claims of citizenship, which has led to a rise in these 55 falling through the cracks.
Apparently:
"By last November, more than 950 officers from 23 states had attended a four-week program on how to root out and jail suspected illegal immigrants.
A Government Accountability Office investigation has since found that ICE did not ensure local officials properly used their authority and failed to collect data to assess the program. As a result, ICE is rewriting agreements with 67 agencies."
^ I don't think it is effective to have local police making decisions on these matters, since it seems most abuse their power or, are too ignorant to really do the job right.
The process is a joke.
basically, it affects the mentally challenged, mentally ill, illiterate and permanently confused.
that's a good 25% of the population :)
watch out though if your last name is gonzales, hernandez, or ortiz or whatever. I haven't heard any O'briens, Smiths, or Jones being deported. That's what I mean by color of their skins.
the thing is, 55 represents a tiny, tiny percent of a real number. Keep in mind, these are "disaposable" people. Those who don't have anybody watching out for them. these 55 actually had someone who knew they existed, and looked for them after they were deported.
by LCD on Mon Apr 13, 09 12:07pm
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25%? In this country? More like 50% :) I hear what you're saying, but in all fairness, a huge majority of illegal immigrants are from Mexico, Central and South America, so as far as the names go, well...no one is forcing them to come here illegally.
You have to admit if there are 11 million illegal immigrants here, and 90% are from those countries, you can't blame the authorities for that. Also, when they conducted the raids I mentioned, every single illegal immigrant they caught at those plants was in fact, Hispanic. A lot of them also had stolen Social Security numbers, most of which belonged to citizens who were living. So in efffect, the illegal immigrants had stolen their identity.
While I do sympathize, I have to be honest and say that it's not we who over-burdened the system...it's the people who try and do enter illegally. Regardless of how you feel, it's not right to put their needs ahead of true citizens. As for the 55, like I said, it's a travisty (sp?) but it's the people causing the problem that are ultimately at fault. Believe me, I gave this a great deal of thought, so it's not like I'm coming to that conclusion easily.
"As for the 55, like I said, it's a travisty (sp?) but it's the people causing the problem that are ultimately at fault. "
think about this carefully.
why don't we change this to black people and murders? should we blame the black race for the 55 wrongly convicted murderers, because they are predominately committing these crimes?
how about we line up white people because they are the ones who are commiting most child molestations? And we can convientely put blame on them in general?
identity crimes? Sure convict them, and put them in jail, I am all for it. But don't forget the personnel departments (even chicken processing plants do background checks - they couldn't match names to social security nos?)
to me, it doesn't pass the smell test. and my nose knows...
by LCD on Mon Apr 13, 09 12:44pm
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by the way, do you know why we don't go after these people who are using fake social sec. no?
because they are propping up ssi. They can't never collect, so they are more than happy to take their $$$ when it comes flooding in every month.
that's why it lasted this long. now that we are cracking down, expect the SSI to go bankrupt 10 years earlier than previous estimates...
by LCD on Mon Apr 13, 09 12:52pm
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In my opinion, there is a world of difference from the two "what if" scenarios. This problem cannot be ignored. You're assuming that a raid to find illegal immigrants is first and foremost designed to find "Hispanic" illegal immigrants. They're not. The government needs to have a program in place and that is just a cold, hard fact. There are simply not enough resources to support so many illegal immigrants and that's just the way it is.
Do you suggest we just ignore the problem? You seem to be blaming the government for the fact that most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico, Central and South America. So do you propose we do nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigration and just let the ones who are here now just stay?
Sorry LCD, but you cannot put the needs of the few ahead of the vast majority. I think you're backing into this problem, as opposed to approaching it from a realistic approach. You assume illegal immigration raids are desiged to snag Hispanic illegals. That, in my opinion is just not accurate. The programs to find and deport illegal immigrants are just that... programs designed to find and deport ALL illegals. If the facts are that 95% of those illegal immigrants are from Mexico, Central and South America, that's just the statistical fact. To me, it's the difference between seeing this as some dark and sinister conspirital plot, versus seeing this as a necessary measure that is made all the more difficult due to an over-burdened system.
I know you're trying to see this from the perspective of those that fall victim unjustly to these systems and so am I. But I'm also willing to put it into perspective and see both sides of the issue.
by the way, do you know why we don't go after these people who are using fake social sec. no?
by LCD on Mon Apr 13, 09 12:52pm
^ Sorry, but that is not accurate. I researched this very thoroughly. The number using falsified documents, such as actual Social Security numbers, is not that high. If you use a Social Security number illegally, taken from someone who is living and has that number, you can only pay into the system once. This is one of the ways they conducted the raids, because the S.S sytem flagged the number as fradulent.
There is absolutely no way it is "propping" up the system LCD. No way. The numbers are way too small. Secondly, illegal immigrants to NOT pay into the Social Security system, yet in some cases, they reap the benefits. That more than anything is part of the problem.
We can discuss this all day if you want...as you know, I'm such a geek, that I know a great deal about this issue and can go on and on. :)
few conflicting things you say :
"11 million illegal immigrants here"
lots of people. ok.
"The number using falsified documents, such as actual Social Security numbers, is not that high"
so they are working without soc. sec no?
" illegal immigrants to(sic:do) NOT pay into the Social Security system, yet in some cases, they reap the benefits"
Please tell me how this is done. I would like to raid the piggy bank too, but I can't seem to figure it out when these dumb immigrants have it down so well...
There is a great way to stop these people from paying into the system.
employers can send names and soc.sec. no into SSA, pay $10 bucks, and get either YES or NO.
The fact that this simple system was not implemented shows me that someone was benefiting from the system, and it certainly wasn't the illegals.
you say you researched it. I admit I did not. Can you tell me how much $$ was paid into the system by 11 million illegal immigrant over the last 20 years? Maybe we can decide if it made a difference after we see the actual number...
"Do you suggest we just ignore the problem"
I will be honest, YES.
I think there's a WHOLE LOT of problems being ignored, which affects far more people. I think one Bernie Madoff is more of a problem than all the mexicans put together. We can put our efforts into the bigger real problems than some poor immigrant crawling into the country starving and willing to eek out a living getting paid $20 bucks a day.
"but you cannot put the needs of the few ahead of the vast majority"
majority is brainwashed by the likes of Limbaugh to think that this is a BIG problem.
I thought this was a christian nation. Whatever happened to being your brother's keeper, etc?
"You assume illegal immigration raids are desiged to snag Hispanic illegals"
Noooooo.
I am saying some racist hick sherriff in Rednecksville Tx, given wide berth to do whatever the hell they feel like, can force some illiterate, mentally ill US citizen to be deported, solely because they happen to be brown.
I never said anything about raids in this ballot, and though I can go on with that too, let's narrow the discussion here :)
by LCD on Mon Apr 13, 09 1:21pm
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Okay, to put it in perspective for you.
On average, Social Security pays out approximately $585 billion per year in beneifts. The average monthly payment in benefits per month, per person receiving Social Security benefits is $1,153.00
People who are legally authorized to work in the United States paid $785 billion into the system in the fiscal year.
Estimates are that illegal workers and non-citizen workers who have authorization to work in the country paid $7 billion into the sytem. So if you take $785 billion paid in, deduct out $7 billion, you have $698 billion being paid in by citizens and those legally allowed to work here. That means that the contributions by "illegals" is 1% of what was paid in.
You also need to understand that illegal aliens do not pay into the system. Why? Because companies that higher illegal immigrants knowlingly, cannot deduct social security taxes for those illegal workers, because they do not exist in the system. If an illegal immigrant obtains a false/fake/stolen socical security number and the employer does not verify the number, then the employer can deduct social security taxes from the employees pay. However, if it is flagged because that number legally belongs to another person, it would be kicked out. If it is never caught, for some odd reason, then in fact, that illegal could collect social security benefits at some point.
The fact is, benefits paid to people who never paid into the system are the problem. And, believe it or not, illegal immigrants are eligible for certain benefits, regardless.
I'm also not arguing with you about the hick Sheriff part. I said that is a problem. But I don't see this from the perspective that there is a sinister plot. Like I said, the sytem is over-burdened and it's not over-burdened by citizens, that's for sure.
:) Sorry, I forgot one other thing. There are many people living and working in the United States who are not citizens, but they came here through the legal channels. They can use what are called individual taxpayer identification numbers. They can pay into the social security system and collect when they reach the age. Even if they have returned home to their own country, they still receive their social security benefits.
Voted : more than 50
My guess--
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