COMMENTS:
It's fine to be taxed (not income but excise tax) to pay for things that make the nation stronger like defense, education, TEMPORARY welfare, etc. but we are taxed much more than we should be.
We have the privilege of living in a great nation, wouldn't you agree? Should that privilege be free?
What if we all chose to keep our money? How would that affect, for instance, the education system (for youngsters) or social security & medicare (for when we get older)? Can we always count on people doing the right thing?
Just wondering.
by mojo on Mon Oct 04, 04 5:38pm
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The lower the amount you earn the lower the taxes should be, this is not the case as the rich and super rich hire other rich people (accountants and lawyers) to help them avoid paying tax.
Perhaps if the conservative right were more concerned chasing after these people for tax instead of banging on at how much (or how little) tax is paid we would have a much fairer system.
Most rich people get rich off the backs of the majority, its time we stopped the finger pointing at the not so well off, and look at those at the top.
mass pendemonium, you point is taken, but would never work.
I liked the flat tax idea. But only for people earning million dollars or more. everybody else should be exempt.
by BCD on Mon Oct 04, 04 10:11pm
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You call that socialism. It is the system in which the government deducts money from your paycheck right away and doesn't harass you with having to do taxes all week long. But the bad part about it is that your salary is real low.
Personally, I love paying taxes. What I don't love are rich, corrupt people or corporations that cheat the tax system THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT! I don't miss the taxes I pay, and as long as an ambulance, or cop, or firetruck responds when I call, or libraries are open when I need, or any other number of things taxes support (military included), I am happy.
Pay more taxes and shut up about it. Look at Scandanavian countries. It is around 55% and many of them own 2 houses, practically all have cell phones, free medical, free education (how many doctorates do you want?) About the worst crime they have are a large portion of lazy frauds collecting money without working, but so what?
But they're still worse off than Americans on average. Why do you think there's a strong Libertarian movement forming in Sweden?
You make use of an extended, cooperative Social Structure inorder to earn that money, as well as to maintain a certain lifestyle. Reasonable taxes are teh cost for helping maintain that Social Structure.
Balking at paying a fair share of costs in a Cooperative System has a formal name, in biology: Parasitism.
And so we have lots of rich parsites
PARASITES I mean
Cathexis
We are paying an unreasonable cost here and the Europeans are really getting screwed. The government gets ~50% of their budget (not including social security and medicare) from sources other than personal income tax, that's more than enough. If we payed off the debt and got rid of the waste we could afford to cut personal and corporate income taxes to 0%.
'Balking at paying a fair share of costs in a Cooperative System has a formal name, in biology: Parasitism.'
How is wanting to pay your own way in life and only be charged for those services that you use being a 'parasite'? I have no problem paying for national defense, or police, or fire departments, etc. I just don't like the thought of paying for some program that is not for the common good, that is only limited to a very specific portion of the populace.
Now, if you were to contribute nothing to society and still demand a paycheck every month, despite doing no work, what would that make you?
There are certain services which have to be provided for by taxes, as there is no way to charge on a per use basis. If a policeman arrests a criminal that benefits everyone in society so it's fair to make everyone in society pay. Same with national defense and a few others. There is no way to give the check fairly to any one person as all benefit and none can avoid benefiting. These programs are legitimate roles for the government. Everything that fits this description should be kept, everything that doesn't should be pruned. I don't like the fact that my money is going to support certain artists who couldn't make it on their own (just to name one asinine government program).
I might be more in favour of the system Herzog promotes, if everyone started on an even playing field, all were give access to the educational and employment opportuities.
He and others who promote the 'I worked for it, I deserve it' section of the society, would think twice if they we earning less than minimum wage.
Its only the very affluent, who promote the 'dog eat dog' attitude.
Herzog states: 'Now, if you were to contribute nothing to society and still demand a paycheck every month, despite doing no work, what would that make you? '
I would be inclined to call them the corporate bosses and those very rich people who earn obscene anounts of money on the backs of those either on minimum wage, or on the backs of the illegal immigrants they hire in the black economy.
What is ironic, these same people are usually the first to decry the influx of 'illigals'
Steelhamster
What about me? I live in the upper-middle class suburbs now, but I grew up in the housing projects of the South Bronx. I've supported the "dog eat dog" aka free market attitude since I was intelligent enough to understand it. We don't all start from the same point in this race but it's an edurance race and your starting point isn't as important as your ability. The 1/3 of millionairs who inherit their money didn't earn it but that other 2/3 did. They are worth that money and we're all better off because they were able to CREATE those assets.
Levelling the playing field is a noble cause but the programs we have now don't do it. The people who live in poor communities are the only ones who can hope to succeed at raising children who are able to get ahead in life. I went back to visit my old building this summer and found the same people living there. They still lived there and didn't have jobs because the government provides for them. If we ended most of those programs those people wouldn't starve, they would get jobs and we'd all be better off because of it.
Sp, THC, because you were born with an abilty that took you out of your predicament, that justifies casting the rest of those not so fortunate adrift?
The problem is, that unless you are gifted or are privileged, you will die in the same class you were born in.
I too am from working class roots, I was fortunate in been born very intelligent and I was able to go to university (which the government paid for, due to my poor background) , had I not had that chance, I would have been destined to have a glass ceiling on my life.
The problem isnt 'getting a job' its getting a job that will pay a living wage. Im not sure if you are from the camp that believes, people should be paid the minimum amount, even though chances are they work the hardest.
I choose to value people of all abilities and all academic abilities.
To me the bricklayer has as much value as the doctor, society deems this not to be so, but without our manual workers, we would not have houses built, electricity wired and plumbing installed.
If the people of your community are not working, ask yourself why?
Is it because they are inherently 'lazy' or do they feel undervalued?
Who decides what is a fair wage?
Im guessing the handicapped kid you refer to is not making much at cleaning tables, however, its a job that has to be done.
We need to pay a fair wage for all employment, not to what we deem more 'worthy' professions.
I loved my job as a youth worker, and it gave me lots of job satisfaction, however, due to the fact I needed to earn more money to just to earn rent etc. I had to give it up.
In a fair and just society, we would all be in jobs according to ability.
I cannot speak for your peers where you grew up, as I do not know the circumstances. I myself, grew up in the toughest part of Glasgow in Scotland, where unemployment was disproportionately high.
I was lucky as I previously stated, as I had a high level of intelligence, so was able to use my ability to raise myself from my circumstances.
We need to be able in a civilised 21st century society, be able to help the least of us, or what does that say about our society?
Im pleased you 'made' it, but you need to ask yourself, do you want to live in a country, where poverty still exists?
I find it difficult to see the homeless and the lost generation on our streets, without a pang of compassion for there but the grace of fate, that could be me.
'Who decides what is a fair wage?'
The free market, don't like what you're getting paid? Go somewhere else for employment.
'Im guessing the handicapped kid you refer to is not making much at cleaning tables, however, its a job that has to be done.
We need to pay a fair wage for all employment, not to what we deem more 'worthy' professions.'
And what exactly would you deem a fair wage? Should someone who busted his ass in medical school be paid the same amount of money to save peoples lives as some loser who slept through highschool and got a job clearing tables?
Herzog, you always seem to come up with two extremes to try and prove a point.
Most people try their best at school, however, not everyone is academically gifted, so they must find employment that is suitable to their talent.
I am sure that given the opportunity, many academically gifted students could go to medical school and become doctors, but you know as well as I, this course is restricted to those who can afford the fees to study. Even those who work to put themselves through any college, are at a significant disadvantage.
Your blind devotion to the free market is flawed in so many ways I dont have time to point them out here, but I will give one example.
The free market is an artifical market, set up by your friends at the top to keep the majority down.
If everyone were a fair wage, the rich would not be so rich and the wealth would be more evennly spread.
You say that the guy who 'busts his ass' at medical school should be given recognition for his hard work. Granted he should be paid well, but so should everyone who provides a service.
Becoming a doctor should be a vocation, not a money making enterprise, you seem to see everything in terms of pounds, shillings and pence.
I quite understand that it doesnt take much intelligence to clean a table or do the 1000's of tasks you deem beneath you, however these jobs have to be done, and as you feel that this job is only for those 'unworthys', perhaps paying them a living wage would help.
You like to bang on about welfare this and tax that, but welfare could be almost eradicated if people were paid enough to be able to make rent, feed and clothe themselves and their kids amd perhaps buy the odd luxury for themselves.
Conservatives believe it is not in their interests to raise people out of poverty, as they need a cheap workforce, to keep them on top and their lies the problem.
Just be grateful you were born into you social station, before being quick to condemn others you and your Republican deem 'undesirable'.
Steelhamster
I already explained why raising minimum wages would not end the need for welfare and may even cause more people to apply for it. We don't have a free market now. The socialists in government and the corporate crooks are both fighting free markets for different reasons.
Wealth should be distributed as evenly as ability is.
Raising wages artifically = more unemployment hamster, thus more welfare. Don't they require you take some sort of economics class in britain? They're mandatory in the US, perhaps you should look into it.
Second, nobody is entitled to a job simply because they managed to be born. It takes effort to starve in the US, considering that millions of immigrants come here every year who speak no english, have no job skills, are not legally allowed to work and yet they manage to find jobs to not only support themselves, but also send money home to their relatives. I have no sympathy for someone who can work but chooses not to simply for convience. Yes there are a few people who are genuinely in bad shape and cannot work, and children should be taken care of, but for every legit case for welfare there are a dozen social parasites.
Love how some people never actually answer my questions.
Bush did the same on the debate, must be a Republican thing.
Also Im tired of the old, if you artificially raise wages it will cause unemployment, what absolute poppycock.
Now you're just being irrational. Do you think we can just raise wages and everything will be fine? Probably the best thing that could happen is inflation and the worst would be high unemployment and a lowered standard of living.
Steel: if a higher minimum wage did nothing to negatively affect the economy, or raise unemployment, or had any other negative effects why not simply raise it to $50/hour and make everyone rich? Because it DOESN'T work like that.
People don't start businesses as a charity to employ people, they do it to make money and they're going to do that no matter what legislature you try to push through. So either they're going to raise costs, send the work outside of the US, or hire fewer people and expect more work out of them.
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