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COMMENTS:
RobinGaylord is making an excellent point, here. I cannot improve upon it but perhaps I can make it more concise: "Eternal oblivion? Been there, done that."
Very good point. I don't believe i n God however maybe we did have a life before this life and simply don't remember.
How is it clear that we did not exist before our physical birth? You seem to have some information on the subject that some of us do not...Science was created by God, not man...It was the instrument utilized to create the universe...Man will always attempt to take the credit for the wonders of the world due to his arrogance...As far as the bible goes, I do not put much stock into it as most do, the bible as been severely tampered with and much of its contents is suspect in my point of view...All the wonders of the universe is not the works of man but a higher spiritual being that the physical body will never, ever amass, because it is incapable of doing so...Because the physical body is only here for a brief moment in time to learn lessons. You maybe one of many people who requires something tangible in oreder to believe that a higher power does exist...However, I understand your position completely, I don't agree it, I do understand why and how you believe as you do...
Fair enough, Bobby. Just so you remember that a lack of memories of a life-before-birth is evidence against that life ever having existed, not for it.
I never stated that man created science, itÂ’s just an interpretation of the universe and itÂ’s physical laws. Things are true because they are, not because some book claims that they are: facts are provable. Since our understanding of existence is based on our interpretations through our consciousness, IÂ’d think that because we can tie our consciousness to our brain and itÂ’s activity, then we can interpret whether or not or consciousness goes on without our brain, since everything in science points against it then the burden of proof is on the person claiming that there is an afterlife and not the atheist. If there is a reason we should believe that there is an afterlife then YOU have to prove it.
I don't know, but I tend to side with Robin. Wishful thinking is an awfully powerful force. How many people refuse to face up to the fact that King Arthur, Lord Nelson, the 12th imam, Elvis, and George W.'s favorite philosopher have died? How much worse is it to admit that we ourselves will die?
Well, you do have a point about the brain being inactive. But the soul and the brain are two different things.
Now I'm not sure about Christians, but I've never heard a Muslim source that said that your soul exists before you are conceived.
Muslims believe(I'm pretty sure) that the soul is breathed into you by God inside the womb.
And the way I look at the spirit and the afterlife is, when you dream, or at least when I do, I can feel fear, anxiousness, happiness, and can move around and walk, and it all feels extremely real, even though my body is doing nothing.
And a different Muslim perspective from Christianity is that Muslims believe that the body, brain, heart and all will be resurrected and will exist in heaven. Christians believe only your soul will exist in heaven.
Well, you do have a point about the brain being inactive. But the soul and the brain are two different things.
Now I'm not sure about Christians, but I've never heard a Muslim source that said that your soul exists before you are conceived.
Muslims believe(I'm pretty sure) that the soul is breathed into you by God inside the womb.
And the way I look at the spirit and the afterlife is, when you dream, or at least when I do, I can feel fear, anxiousness, happiness, and can move around and walk, and it all feels extremely real, even though my body is doing nothing.
And a different Muslim perspective from Christianity is that Muslims believe that the body, brain, heart and all will be resurrected and will dwell in heaven, as Adam and Eve did. Christians believe only your soul will exist in heaven.
Yes, but when you dream your brain is active, after you die it isn't. There is no proof that there is a soul and if there is no afterlife then I can't see any reason for one. I don't buy into the Buddhist interpretation of one either.
People do have memories of former lives. They are dismissed and denied by people like Neal Anderthal.
Proof that God does not exist? You'll never find it.
RobinGaylord. I hate to remind you but there are people who believe in God and the afterlife but do not belong to a religion. Why was that option not in your ballot choices? Do you find it easier to deny the existence of God by bashing religion?
Guest_304b5 = RobinGaylord. I was kicked off for some reason when I sent that last comment and it did not properly assign my name to it.
sorry fundies, you get one chance in your current body suit, then you are worm food. mmmmmm
this is most rediculous ballot I've ever seen, all knowing, why do a lot of things happen, who knows, only God
Oh please, there are tons more rediculous ballots than this one.
At least this gets some people to think a bit.
Alright, if there is an after life and our consciousness can exist outside of our current bodies, then why do we not have memories before we were born of some other plain of existence? - by RobinGaylord
Maybe you don't remember anything but I do, and I'm not the only one. My own memoires also have got nothing whatsoever to do with old religious books either despite your silly assumptions.
Oh, and it's not at clear "that we didn't exist before birth". Maybe you didn't, but that generalization of yours doesn't apply to everyone.
We do have memories, have you ever heard of past life therapy? What about the cases of children telling there parents about there past life and it turns out they were right about all the details?
Your right about the Bible, its just fiction.
What about people who have reported having Out Of Body experiences? Ok you may say there just dreams but what about the studies where someone has put a book in another room and the person astral projected to that room, read the page the book was open at and successfully told the scientist what it said?
by seon on Sun Jul 10, 05 10:33pm
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And how do you know for sure we didn’t exist before birth? What if we chose our life’s and families before we were reborn and the obstacles we have to overcome in this life?
by seon on Sun Jul 10, 05 10:38pm
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Seon- There is a really good book out there called The Skeptics Dictionary. It’s a play on The Devil’s Dictionary I believe because in fact it is more like an encyclopedia than a dictionary. The reason I like this book is because scientists commonly disprove things such as astral projection and past life memories but they don’t make the news because it isn’t always very interesting and usually hoaxers just go on to create other false evidence in the hope of gaining notoriety. For instance most people I talk to don’t know that the guy who took the first photo of The Loch Ness Monster confessed on his deathbed that it was a hoax and the guy that found the first Big Foot tracks and made all those plaster casts also confessed to faking it. Back to your points –1. It has been proven that a person under hypnosis is very susceptible to having false ‘memories’ planted in their head. Satanic ritual abuse was discovered to have been a hoax after discovering that over zealous doctors had planted fake memories of satanic cults abusing their patients during their childhood. This is why I am skeptical of all ‘recovered memory’ found this way: UFO abductions, repressed memories of abuse, etc. 2. There is little if any evidence to support that astral projection is possible or has ever happened. There is however evidence of hoaxes being conducted by the most “respected” people who created the hypothesis of it’s existence and the elaboration thereof. For instance Madame Blavatsky founder of The Theosophical Society has been known to be the creator of such hoaxes. For more information go to Skepdic.com – Note the misspelling.
So are you saying those astral projection cases I told you about are hoaxes to? Why would the scientists lie about such results?
I guess a person under hypnosis can have false memories implanted inside there head very easily but what about the cases in India where children tell there parents there not there real parents and describe in detail there past lives in the next village and when there parents go to the next village they go to the next village the children are proven right? They could have overheard the adults talk but I don’t think the adults would know every detail.
What about Ghost sightings or genuine Psychics who have made correct predictions (I’m not talking about the fakes). If you say people just imagined ghost sightings then I dare you to spend a night in a haunted house. As you can tell I’m not religious but I know there’s more to life then the physical plane and its possible that a higher power exists I mean we only know about a small percentage of the universe so wouldn’t it be a bit arrogant to say we know 100% of the universe and there’s defiantly no higher power or nothing else is out there but human beings who evolved from a lower life form who evolved from some goo without any help whatsoever?
Also I know loch ness monster is a hoax and the guy confessed big foot was a hoax but that doesn’t mean there isn’t more to life.
by seon on Wed Jul 13, 05 7:25pm
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I’m only trying to help you understand that these types of phenomena do not have any scientific credibility and it is ridiculous to think that the logical explanation for kids talking about other parents is past life memories. Kids are much more perspective than you give them credit for. It is far more logical to assume that they had just over heard their parents talking. I can’t see any reason for someone to assume that their next logical thought should be “Oh he must have had a past life!” There is no basis for this type of reasoning.
Well some cases of astral projection have scientific credibility. Same with Ghosts, some people do investigate them and they have been caught on film and it’s hard to believe every single person who had an encounter with a ghost was seeing things.
I just think it’s easier to believe they were remembering there past lives since they were right about every single detail then saying they overheard people talking and it seems more reasonable.
Some scientists claim God exists. If you only have faith in science and nothing else then that kind of seems like a religion to me. I don’t have a belief system like science or religion to defend. I believe in something because my instincts tell me to pay attention to that theory or that philosophy and scientists might be wrong. I prefer not to believe in something just because a group of guys in lab coats say it has “scientific credibility”
by seon on Thu Jul 21, 05 9:19pm
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My Mom died 1500 miles away from me in a distant hospital. My Dad never told me how serious my Mom's illness was. In fact, he told me she was well and coming home. One afternoon, I heard my Mom's voice as clear as if she were standing next to me tell me she was not in any pain anymore. 30 minutes later, my Dad called to tell me my Mom had died--30 minutes ago. Yet, even with this PROOF that consciousness exists after death, I still cannot accept it.
Mr. Gaylord, you've been blinded by the shadows of ignorance "only a fool leans on his own misunderstanding"
Mr. Gaylord, look at your body, lying on the floor,your body is only a conveyor,flesh and blood can go not where the spirit must at the end.
do you believe in the existence of Angels?
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Ok, even if we did not exist before birth, How does this rule out some sort of after life?
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There is an overwhelming body (to me at least) of testimony supporting some form of life after death. I do not know why we cannot remember details of our past lives but it is reasonable to assume previous lives have occured if there is an afterlife. (If you believe the personal testimony of others, of course)
i agree with you but i live in hope i will exist on some level after death, and some kind of consiousness must exist out there in no matter or how did matter come to be in the first place with out some kind of thought creating it, dam it maybe we will know one day i am sure there is an answer to why matter is here and we are stuck in it.
I believe that the existence of God/an afterlife/a spirit world/what have you cannot be proven nor disproven by modern science.
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Sounds like you you really want to believe there is an after-life....dont be shy, its ok to have a little faith
can science prove that there isnt a god eather? have they proved that yet?
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A lack of memory of an afterlife from a newborn infant does not disprove the possibility of a previous existence. Can anyone remember the thoughts they had as a newborn? If a previous existence does exist, not remembering it does not disprove it. The mind of an infant is not capable of retaining and retrieving memory the way an adult's can. A newboen's mind is focused on it's immediate physical needs only. I am not saying that there is an afterlife. I am only saying the argument that there isn't one because we cannot remember it does not seem to work.
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Let's assume nothing existed before and nothing exists after, so why does anything exist now???
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Your theory is the dumbest ive heard yet. do you remember when you were 1 or 2. obviously not,but you base you opinion on faith that you were once 2 years old. i have faith that there is a god, Jesus Christ. email me at brchogenmiller@aol.com. i would like to talk more about the matter
How in the hell do you know. You cant remember
How in the hell do you know. You cant remember
GOD does exist and even if you do not believe in Him....He still loves you
The Bible is self fulfilling prophesty. John's cube (see the next to last chapter in the Bible) is as buidable as going to the Moon or Disney World. "What one man can conceive another can do." Maybe thats what God wants anyway. He said, "I go to PREPARE a place for you. He is a Carpenter not a Magician! And if evolution works, God is unavoidable. After all the Universe has a good 5 billion years to go.
You know I must say that I'm really surprised that so many people say that after we die our consciousness no longer exists forever. Sure science seems to prove this but that doesn't keep it from actually being the most ludicrous conclusion there is and now I'll explain why.
Firstly I believe that the root cause of this mass delusion is that everyone can't comprehend nothing and that most don't realize that the reason for that is because nothing does not exist. Ask one of these people what they think them not existing is like and they will say "a black void". Well hmmm there are some big contradictions to that such as a black void IS STILL SOMETHING!!! The closest living people have gotten to the state of being dead is being unconscious and when these people no matter how long they have been kept unconscious come out of it have not been experienced the time passed while being unconscious, so unconsciousness to consciousness again happens instantaneously.
What I have said here makes it impossible for me to believe there is no afterlife. Sure it could be an incredibly dull afterlife like starring at a black void for eternity but I think that's extremely unlikely because of the unconsciousness to consciousness again scenario. Unless there is a God and he's evil enough to send us to that fate or is what he made as hell for which he thinks should be punished like that after death, it's not possible.
I heard that things can become so small that they fall into the 4rth dimension. So maybe that's where all the parts of our destroyed conscience goes after we die and eventually puts itself back together again and comes back into the 3rd dimension where it again becomes victim to evolving life forms because eventually it will gravitize into a living life form and then somehow becomes sperm, or whatever life evolving thing and I really believe that it is the most likely scenario. I know it's hard to imagine how a parted conscience can become complete again but in the never ending universe you can bet it eventually will, probably after many more big bangs and even a googolplexian of more years but when you're back you would not have experienced that time of waiting while broken. All of this is why I cannot fear death. Hmmmm, what I just said also indicates that it is actually more fearfull to believe the existance of a God.
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i do believe that there is an afterlife
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Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Jainism all mention concepts of life before birth.
If there's an Afterlife
there *HAS TO BE* a BeforeLife,too.
The Order of The Universe dictates that!
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