COMMENTS:
Great ballot.
by mojo on Tue Apr 19, 05 4:41pm
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Nope, that's not how it works :) God knows your heart and you can't fool him. If you know you are willingly sinning or doing something bad, just because you say sorry to Christ doesn't cut it. That is where repentance comes in. You have to actively try to change and even if no matter how hard you try you can't, if you at least want to in your heart, that's what matters :) I think? I hope!!
Hold on there Jyl, if you're sincere a few seconds should cover it.
what patch said
of course that is not the way it works jyl, and fiddle , with all due respect, you don't know every christian on the planet, so why make a broad ballot choice like that?
Uhm, I didn't say ALL, I said most. Just like I don't think that most Christians would recognize Jesus if he returned (or ever existed). When I look at the "christians" in the US, I find a great deal of fear and hatred directed at others (gays, etc). I see a lot of people calling themselves "christian" who think nothing of firing someone, who accumulate wealth here on earth, who vote for a warmonger as president and who don't follow the example of their "savior". While I am not a "christian", I am familiar with his Jesus's teachings. They were very much about helping the poor, the feared, the outcasts, the marginalized, the hated and about storing your riches in "heaven" and not here on earth. I see lots of big fat SUVs when I drive by any church on Sunday. I see lots of homeless people when I ride my bike, I don't see lots of "christians" trying to help them. I see lots of "christians" ignoring them, wanting longer and longer jail sentences, and pushing for the death penalty. I don't see a line of "christians" waiting to visit people in prison, although this was a very clear teaching of Jesus. Well.... you asked. That is the rationale for my ballot choice.
I don't think I am asking too much for people to follow the example of their leader or god. Some christians have done so, like St. Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa and others.
give me a break, look at the christian charities, our church as do most christians churches help the poor, provide shelter for homeless, work in jungles of africa. you just pick the worst , and forget the good many do. Christian charities, build homes for needy family, provide cash assistance for those who need it, have most of the food banks in the cities.
and I don't thik I'm asking too much for you to stop looking at the neg of what some christians do , I know in my home town, if not for churches providing shelter for homeless and food banks for the poor, those things would not exist
this whole christian bashing going on really makes me sad.
You are completely missing my point. I DID NOT say ALL Christians. I said many or most. I am very aware of many good things that churches and christians do. It is just in my opinion that it is far less common than it should be. All you have to do to see my point is turn on the television sunday morning in the US.
Fids, I have to agree with larrynelmira. The Maryknolls for example are Missionary religious folks and they go to some of the most inhospitable parts of the world and build schools, hospitals, grow food, dig wells, etc. There are something like 1 billion Christians (maybe more). Most are not the fear generating kind. The problem is, many Evangelical Christians and Televangelists, like Pat Robertson, preach the end times and not the current times. They have so ingrained fear into the minds of so many good intentioned Christians that those people are totally turned upside down. What they fail to realize is that the Oral Roberts and the Ralph Reeds very often preach for their own bank accounts. Their "reward" as they like to call it will be quite dark I think. I was raised that Christianity is about Christ and is all about love, compassion, warmth, forgivness, generosity and thankfullness. The negative image of some fundamental Christians is not truly representative of the 1 billion of us. Its the same with Islam--those radicals have given the whole religion an undeserved bad rap. With Judasim, the image of the "NY Jew" comes to mind, but that too is a misconception. Some where along the way, the major religions of the world, including Christiantiy, were hijacked my the mainstream media. Very sad really. But I respect where you're coming from and in some ways, agree with you.
your ballot choice said it for you
It's odd how people jump to conclusions when I question things about religion. I greatly respect many religious people and figures. My point is that with any religion, many people like to give themselves a label but they don't really live the life they say they do or what the founder of the religion says they should. And, whether you agree or not, my opinion on this subject is as valid as yours, especially considering the ballot question. Please try to read what I say as not an indictment of all people who say they are religious, just a good lot of them. The world would be totally different if all christians lived lives like Mother Teresa or St Francis (good examples of christians) or the people you mention, now wouldn't it be?
I don't even care any more fiddle, christian bashing is right next to american bashing, and I'm sick of this site and people who have nothing better to do then bash millions if not billions of people they do not know
I stand by my ballot choice and comments. I ask you to read what I actually said and not get defensive about it. I actually said some very positive things there if you would look.
where do you respect, your ballot choice said it all, yes I'll jump to the defense of my faith.
yeah right you named a few sainted or about to be sainted people and ignored the billions of christians behind the scenes who help others. Riding up and down the streets on your bike does not make you all knowing. Did you stop to help the homeless man? did you bother going into the church and seeing the programs they have for the poor?
stand by your ballot choice, but I totally disagree with it
First of all Larry, it really doesn't matter what others think of or say against your faith as long as you are true to it and God...FFonLSD is merely expressing his viewpoint as it is his right to do so...No matter what anyone may say about my faith, I will hold steadfastly. No matter the words expressed against your faith by others, it is up to you whether you will allow those things said to cause you to respond/behave contrary to principles of your faith.
Correction: "contrary to *the* principles of your faith."
If I remember the bible correctly, I think Jesus talked a lot about hypocrisy (which is what this ballot is about btw). He also talked a lot about how being pious and observant were essentially missing the boat. I think he talked much more about how your actions were more important than piousness or money. He lived in poverty, yet gave the world so much by his actions. And... there are a number of Christians who do follow his example. I have personally seen many courageous acts done by christians (mostly catholics, btw) but, if you want to understand why there is so much christian or religion bashing on this site... it isn't about the message, it is about the hypocrisy. It's not about being generous at the holiday is it? It's not about having a ton of money and driving your BMW to church and calling yourself christian. In my experience it often the most poor (in this world) that do the best in following his teachings. It is about the actions that you take daily. Isn't that what Jesus talked about? If you want to interpret the things I say as christian-bashing they you miss my entire point and are FLAT OUT WRONG. The message is great, the follow-through is lacking in many. I'm not attacking your faith, larry and patch. I'm attacking the hypocrisy of many. If you don't see that then that is unfortunate. I would think many of true faith would agree with what I said.
the Shame of it (the reason I made a self-righteous ballot) is that the people who are proudest to publically use their 'faith' are not as good or moral as the nice blue-haired lady with a special table for her family bible.
by Jyl on Tue Apr 19, 05 11:08pm
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Very well stated FFonLSD, there are those on this site who professes to be Christians and will knowingly provide mistruths about other people. I am a firm believer in the old saying, "beware of wolves in sheep clothing." The Hypocrisy is alive and well and the shame is not found with those who aren't aware that they are being hypocrites, it is found in those who know that they are...And some of those individuals are in leadership positions and that is why the world is in the shape it is in today.
Fids, I could not agree more. I really think you nailed it. There is so much hypocricy. But even a poor Christian can be hypocritical and can talk a good game when they need to or want to, but their actions and they way they live their lives contradict the true teachings of faith. Jesus loves all man kind and came here for all of humanity. The thing about his teachings is that it recognizes that man is not perfect and that man is in many ways, weak in certain areas. I think that Larry's point is that you can't judge all of Christianity because of a few. There is really no rule or law that forbids Christians from being wealthy and it's what they do with their money to help others that counts. As for actions, again, it is my belief that God knows what is in each of our hearts and that is a big factor in all of this. Every major religion has people of that faith who proclaim thier faith loudly, but live opposite to its teachings. That I think is the human condition and to work to evolve and better yourself in terms of values and morals is the key --that means not judging others and not being pious and acting holier-than-thou. A tough one. Very interesting debate! :)
And ps, the part I wrote about not being pious and judging others is something each person on this earth has to work on in my opinion. :)
you don't have to be a christian to screw the world up. and all christians did not vote for president Bush. majority of christian voters in the usa did not even bother to vote and many did vote for Kerry. There are christians democrats you know.
But again , you never mention them when talking about christians, you just focus on the ones you find to be hypocritical, and don't care what you say, they are not the majority.
("moral values"..)
by Jyl on Wed Apr 20, 05 8:07am
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and it is just as wrong to say most christians as it is to say most blacks, most muslims, most jews, most hispanics and so on. I'm sure you would jump to the defence of any of those groups of people if someone made such a broad statement as that.
uhm... I've been talking about the hypocrisy of many with religious "beliefs". I don't think I limit it to one religion. Except I would probably exclude Buddhists (which I'm not). Not a lot of self righteousness or any wars fought in it's name. And I think your other points are being based on things that I didn't say, just how you interpret what I said. I don't think I said christian democrats where any less prone to hypocrisy than republicans. I'm not criticizing you, larry, btw. I really think if you stepped back from this a bit you would see my point.
(karma threats aren't cool, but that's what's in the un-approved messages over there --> I don't know who it's from but I do know exactly who's made those threats before.. ."Don't make me JUDGE you" ? - How can you "judge" me, unless you're a certain sign-ed out user being a bully? Remember that I still haven't stooped to rating you down kid.)
by Jyl on Wed Apr 20, 05 9:55am
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Jyl, what message posting are you referring to? I don't see it in this thread of postings?
It's in the unapproved messages at the top of the page, and I think that kind of behavior should be made public but if I approve it it will dissapear mysteriously. I'm just going to shut up about it.
by Jyl on Wed Apr 20, 05 12:02pm
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I don't know if you are referring to me in your last two comments Larry (just in case you are) I know that TRUE Christians are not responsible for the shameful conditions of the world. I was referring to those individuals who claims to practice true Christian principles in their everyday lives. I will defend ALL walks of people who have and/or continue to be discriminated against, lie about, and/or denied a slice of the so call American pie. I am not disagreeing with you, I am merely addressing those individuals who are NOT demonstrating what they profess to be in their everyday lives (Christians) and YES, that also includes GW BU_ _SH_ _.
then criti President Bush or pat robertson or anyone who proclaims to be holier than thou but are not, I have no problem with that, it's when you lump millions of people together that annoys me.
Jyl, if it says something like "yeah, what about moral values?" Details Jyl! Don't make me JUDGE you!" and then a smiley face...I was posting that as a little humor :) You know, because the whole last few postings have been about not passing judgement...get it lol!
But what's weird is that for some reason, B&W keeps auto-logging me off, so when I click submit, sometimes I see it says "Welcome Visitor" up in the right and the message I was going to post is gone. Weird. I assume that was mine...but had nothing at all to do with Karma?? Are you referring to someone else? Anyway, that's probably what you're talking about. I sent you a message about it.
okay GOOD.. I've just had it with bratty kids and karma wars and so I've gotten jumpy about it! I'll try to relax though, thanks for setting me straight :p .. but anyway back to the fight- Jesus would be ashamed of you PIGS.
by Jyl on Wed Apr 20, 05 1:48pm
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Here is, I think, a possible flaw in this argument: In order to be forgiven for their sins, Christians must be truly penitent for them, and it seems to me that implicit in your scenario, the "Christian" seems unlikely to be truly penitent. It's like "I'm going to sin, but so long as I confess it, I'll be covered." However, my understanding of Christian theology and doctrine is that forgiveness attaches only to sins for which the supplicant is truly penitent. This seems unlikely if you set out to deliberately sin.
So, in answer to your question,it wouldn't be "okay" to deliberately sin while planning to have it forgiven the next day.
Interesting ballot. Thanks.
no its not, and true christians do not give themselves to Jesus for only a few minutes,
Odds are, if you were to try that, you'd be the first person to land on the Really Hot Rocks...
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