COMMENTS:
It's sick and twisted. You cannot proclaim to be a people of faith and then turn around and riot and kill at the drop of a hat. I will never, ever understand what motivates radical Islam to react the way they do.
If someone flushed my newest issue of High Society down the toilet I might start busting some heads.
If we were not at war, not sure such reactions would have happened, although I don' t know, but it's sad that it has come to this, I personally would not riot if the Bible was flushed or whatever, I would not be happy about it, but what are you going to do?
That is completely, and utterly insane. Not only is this a mere rumor that a single book has been flushed, but it's a freaking book. Bibles are destroyed everyday, and you don't see anybody rioting. But that's because there are millions of them on the press. But heaven forbid one Koran is dropped in the can. These people, these fanatics, are absolutely insane, as well as uber ridiculous. IDIOTS.
a rumor, my god...
Larry: exactly, you can be pissed off about something, that's fine. But resorting to violence when it is completely unnecessary and counterproductive is not the sign of a civilized people. And until these incidents in the middle east are only heard of in history books the arab world cannot count itself among the civilzed nations.
Switch positions for a sec. If America was invaded by Muslim fundamentalists who were rumored to be flushing copies of the Bible, there'd be a hell of an uproar. Whether or not this actually happened is moot, but the story of the Koran being flushed may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back in terms of human endurance for some who may have suffered terribly already.
My only regret would be not wiping my ass with each page before flushing.
These animals will riot about pretty much anything.
I say, load up the hogs and wood-chippers and really give them something to cry about.
;)
If we were Christian prisoners, we probably wouldn't like it one bit if we were being held prisoner and someone flushed a Bible down the loo.
But KILLING people because of it?? Proof again that we cannot understand their culture any more than they can understand ours. We have absolutely no business imposing our system of values on these citizens, any more than they have the right to do so with us.
On a related issue: seizing people and imprisoning them indefinitely without legal representation at Guantanamo Bay is a blot on the honor of the United States.
Good ballot, herz.
by mojo on Tue May 17, 05 1:00pm
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Zig: I really doubt that christians in the US would riot at the prospect of a waterlogged bible and kill other christians. Sure they would have during the dark ages, but they have for the most part moved past that stage of ignorant fundamentalism. The muslim world is exactly where christianity was during the crusades. Unfortunately unlike medievel christians, muslims are not largely isolated and harmless. Because of technology they've purchased from the west (they haven't invented anything of note in the past thousand years) they can travel across the globe, organize themselves despite being geographically dispersed, and use weapons that could wipe out cities. It's too bad they didn't get this out of their system before the invention of the atomic bomb.
Yes, killing over an unsubstantiated report over a book being flushed - holy or otherwise - contradicts everything that Islam purportedly teaches.
I see Zig's point too, but, given that lately, all they do is call for "Holy Wars," and given the huge increase in honor killings, the radcial fringe elemets seem to have take the whole religion hostage. Unfortunatley, we don't see the millions of peaceful Muslims that go to the Mosque for peceful observance, we see the nut jobs in the streets. Mainstream Islam has to rid itself of the extremists and fast!
In the South and in Texas, in the not too distant past, they used to lynch black men for the crime of "looking at a white woman."
Extremism of all kinds is destructive, whether it be political (left or right) or religious (Christian or Muslim).
Zig: I agree. But if you look at it objectively every religion teaches pretty much the same thing. But obviously they don't all behave the same way. So that's what we should judge a religion on, not what it claims it's people should do, but what they actually do. Actions, not words.
I see what you're saying herzog, but really we are poles apart. We can't possibly understand individuals who react in such a way unless we've been subjected to their social and religious influences and have experienced life at the end of a gun for decades. Desperate people do desperate things, rightly or wrongly. We are all animals under the surface when we feel cornered, red in tooth and claw.
Right and wrong are irrelevant. Succsessful negotiation depends on prediction. Prediction is the key, not judging a seemingly irrational action. This is the primary reason conservatives continually F up foreign relations. They use overly simplistic models to predict behavior and they tend to impose morality rather than understand cause and effect.
What does the Catholic Church do in Brazil? Condemns the use of birth control, so there are literally millions of orphaned and abandoned children living in the streets of their major cities. Many more die there every day from malnutrition and disease than Muslims in any Koran riots.
In the US, the children aren't living in poverty, because their parents almost universally ignore the Church and practice birth control. Of course, don't leave your kid alone with a priest, unless you want him banged in the rear by a pedophile. And of course, the Church ferociously protects its pedophiles from justice.
Yes, let's judge religions by what they do.
Actions, not words.
Did anyone say two wrongs make a right?
and if you are saying, no one making an issue on what some christians do and have done, I guess you haven't been paying attention to the world lately
this is just another example how some people can not be critical of religions unless it's being critical of christians, I'm not making excuses for what some christians and some priest and others are doing and have done, why do you feel you have to make excuses whenever Islam is the one in the spotlight.
Islam, christanity, Judaism, we all do and have done things not so nice, why can't people be honest about that?
I won't say that it's the state that Islam is in, because no religion has gone without its episodes of violence. But I will say that it's indicative of the twisted minds running those poor sheeple.
Larrynelmira is right. This ballot is about the riots in the street and the violence by Muslims over the Koran. Cranky, you need to keep in mind that the Catholic Church is just one of many denominations in Christianity, so you can't label all of "Christianity" because you have issues with some of the teachings of the Catholi hirarchy (sp?). Similarly, you can't label all of Islam as "bad" just because of those rioters.
I think it was more of a case of the straw that broke the camel's back.
Trying to make sense of a vastly different world than the one you live in is just, well, impossible. We can't get there from here.
People for whom religion is their primary source of identity and hope are likely to go ballistic at any real or imagined attack on the foundations of their world. Perhaps if Newsweek had looked a bit closer at this alien reality, they may have taken a pass on the story. Bet they do now.
And, Patch, these folks can and do proclaim themselves as "people of faith" by their own definition. One assumes from your comment that they are not such people according to your worldview. But that isn't the world they live in.
Good ballot. Thanks.
Even though I know the true reason behind this ballot, I shall move on and address the question.
That those who follow Islam may have over reacted is not in question, but to say that we in the west dont have a similar reaction is ludicrous.
I remember well the absolute uproar caused when John Lennon claimed The Beatles were bigger than Jesus.
The phrase containing glass houses and stones comes tomind.
Even though I know the true reason behind this ballot, I shall move on and address the question.
by Steelhamster on May 17, 2005
Really Steel, just what IS the REAL reason behind the ballot, since you seem to know so much. Don't presume to know the real reason, as only the creator of the ballot knows the reason. To be quite frank, his observation is very valid. If you can't, or more likely, won't acknowledge that the reactions of those rioters was out of hand, then I don't know where you're coming from. Being cynical ALL the time is a bit tiresome. Casting disparaging accusations about the intent of these types of ballots ALL the time is also tiring. Why not let the ballot question be as it is? Why try to weave in racism into everything this poster does? I like you Steel, but always being the doubting Thomas is worn thin. Did you stop to consider that from the perspective of civilized behavior, what those rioters did was most uncivilized? This ballot is not about Christinatiy or casting the firt stone, it is about observation, debate and discussion of a news event.
I believe the reason for the ballot wasnt really to condemn or condone the actions of those rioters.
The reason I believe for the ballot is self evident if you look at Herzogs ballot historyand his unswerving hatred for anything Arabic or Islamic.
You may have a different view, and like everyone else on this site, you are entitled to express it.
I know Steel and I do respect your views very much. But sometimes, things are black and white and not gray. He was opening up debate on an issue covered in the news. Facts. Not hearsay or innuedno, but facts. If everytime someone does that and they are labled a racist, then politcal correctness is out of hand. I'm sorry, but the ballot question is very valid.
I've doddled on the Qu'ran when bored.
by aya on Tue May 17, 05 8:47pm
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"That those who follow Islam may have over reacted is not in question, but to say that we in the west dont have a similar reaction is ludicrous."
Find a similar example in the western world. Go ahead.
"I remember well the absolute uproar caused when John Lennon claimed The Beatles were bigger than Jesus."
Right, a bunch of people getting upset and writing angry letters is exactly the same as a bunch of people rioting and killing each other. In the same way that a game of baseball is no different than wwII. You're stretching it steely boy. I know the exact intent of your post; you refuse to acknowledge any flaws with islam just as you won't see that maybe sometimes the west isn't the villian.
"Switch positions for a sec. If America was invaded by Muslim fundamentalists who were rumored to be flushing copies of the Bible, there'd be a hell of an uproar."
I love how the common response to the insanity of radical religion is to try and toss another religion into the pot, in this case, it's completely ludicrous to even think that Christians would react the same way. Oh, and for your information, the ACLU has gone to bat for 'artists' who have bibles in a jar of urine and they call it 'art', and they have actually WON in court over christian groups who rightfully called them lewd and disgusting.
Modern Christian fundamentalists are every bit as bloodthirsty as any of the mullahs. Only THEY never get their hands dirty in the process and their true motives are sanitized by the media. They prefer to kill by proxy and send countless thousands of young idealists to their deaths wrapped in the false banners of 'sacrifice' and 'justice' while they sit back smugly on their fat a$$es and count the dosh. They're no better in my opinion.
someone once told me "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"
You know what? you were right
Larry: I wasn't talking about Christianity. I was talking about those who kill in the name of sacrifice and justice or any label they want to slap on it and call it Christianity. True Christians don't have to kill for their beliefs.
this is amazing how you people react, did not see anyone come to the defence of christianity and all it's bashing on this site. It really is rediculous, no wonder people leave this site , you can't have it both ways, just because you don't like the current admin. and fund christians, you excuse everything another religion does, and you use the lame excuse, well look what christians did?
Yes some christians have done terrable things, I'll be first to admit that, but that does not mean, every person or act that some do of another faith on the planet are pure as angels and never do wrong. But you would think that by some of you people.
zig, I rephrased my comment, but no, that's what it seems you are doing zig, with all due respect
Anyway, sorry if I offended you or anyone else. About time I took a break from here myself I think. I prefer debating face to face and in person: That way there's much less room for misunderstanding.
don't leave because of me zig, it's not your statement that really upset me, it's that of everyone. This is debating, that's one of the reasons for the site, not your fault I'm overly senitive about it.
This is bordering on absurd. Two wrongs don't make a right. The ballot is about the radical fringe element and in all fairness, has nothing to do with "Oh yeah, well Christians are just as bad." The reality is, it is rare for Christians to take to the street in mass numbers, let alone burn flags, burn efigees and call for blood shed. That is just a fact. However, radical Muslims do, almost daily! As I said, I believe that these people are the minority and do not represent Islam. That being said, it appears that they are easily moved to violence and daily call for "holy wars" and other forms of violent response. For what? Can anyone tell me why, if it had been true, taking to the streets and causing death and destruction, is an appropriate response? You can't, because it is not. By dragging Christianity or any other non-Islamic religion into this is avoiding the question at hand.
Radical, fundamental zealots are the issue here and how they respond to what they consider an afront to their faith. Let's remember that the radical elements of Islam also support honor killings and that is almost always a woman. Maybe its just me, but they scare me. I wish the majority of Muslims would rid themselves of these violent elements.
Larry, Christians have been persecuted in some form or anohter since the religion took root. Don't let it get to you, as everyone is entitled to their beliefs -- your faith is what matters, so don't get discouraged. Freedom of religion also means that people who don't believe, have a right to express their views, as long as it is non-violent. If you're a devout Christian, no one is going to change you, so what they say or do should not bother you too much. :)
Why would I bash Christians? I have nothing but respect for those who practice the tenets of true Christianity. However, I don't see those modern crusaders - Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their ilk - who beat the war drum and support mass killing as Christian. Quite the opposite.
I agree, I don't like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, I think they are doing great harm to christianity and America for that matter
I think my point was, don't blame all Christians for what they and others do , just like I would never blame all muslims for what some do.
That is really my point here.
Larry, I wouldn't dream of blaming all Christians for the current insanity, that would be ludicrous. I'm Christian myself, meaning I believe in the teachings of Christ, even if I don't choose to go to church.
I was simply making a comparison as to how any population of people might react if they felt the very foundations of their way of life were under threat.
it seems like some do that , again I'm sorry if I offended you. I was just saying, why can't we crit what we perceive as wrong, without the "well look what he is doing." maybe it's just me, but I feel when people do that, they are justifing the wrongs
Not how I see it at all. None of us are lily-white. There is fanaticism and deep misunderstanding on both sides of the equation.
Not saying you are a fanatic, or anyone else is, just that it exists. But fanaticism is always to be found at the fringes of any major religion, with the possible exception of Buddhism.
Good ballot herzog, even if it did stir up a mini-hornet's nest. ;)
I agree zig
Zig and Larry, totally agree. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are horrible people. I can't stand them.
The issue here isn't Christian versus Muslim, it's liberal versus conservative. In a liberal society, such things rarely happen. It's conservative societies, with belief-based thought systems, are where the people tend to go nuts, en masse.
It's ironic that American conservatives criticize Muslim conservatives for behaving that way, but would bring that kind of societal insanity to Western countries if they could, under the banner of Jesus.
That's the last thing any real Christian would want, conservative or liberal.
Only the zealots want to impose their beliefs on others at any price.
Wrong again crank. The days of fundamentalist christian nations being led by a religios leader crusading for the lord are over. You missed them by about 500 years.
So even if this ballot were about christians, and you weren't simply trying to take attention away from muslim actions that cannot be defended, you would still be off target.
Couple of points.
"PissChrist" Artwork that was government funded and shown in buildings built with taxpayer money.
Palestinian Occupation of the Church of the Nativity. Defecated and pissed all over the place and also "desecrated" with grafitti the most Holy Church in Christianity.
Catholic Practices constantly desecreated by the irreligious left in San Francisco.
Riots? None.
Deaths? None.
Media Outrage? None.
Media Support? Priceless.
If you were holed up for five weeks dodging Israeli tanks and bullets, the Church of the Nativity would probably reek of your urine, too.
Yes, Zerhog, thanks to liberalism and the Enlightenment, the days of conservative religious loonies sending innocents to their deaths in the crusades is long over. Too bad you ignored my point, which is that conservatives would like to bring those days back in the West.
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." Ann Coulter.
There are no Christian nations herzog. And if you've seen what Hindu nations have done in the past when a cow is killed is identical to this.
So herzog, what's the point of flushing the Quran? Do you think flushing of that Quran was justified?
Isn't this like the 5th ballot you've made about the Quran being flushed or destroyed?
Unfortunately crank liberals of the past have nothing to do with liberals of today. I love how democrats will eagerly point out that the democrats of the 1950s (pro segregation) have nothing to do with the democrats of today, then you come on here and laud the accomplishments of liberals from 400 years ago. Which is it? Do they have to be contemporary to be considered relevent, or does history count (in which case democrats are to blame for slavery)?
LD: there are nations that are predominately christian. If it were theocratic governments ordering these riots then it would be relevent that there are no christian theocracies. But it seems to be spontaneous, in which case the government doesn't matter, and the individuals religions does.
"So herzog, what's the point of flushing the Quran? Do you think flushing of that Quran was justified?"
Umm . . . it never happened. Newsweek addmitted to lying and making the whole thing up. So do I have to justify something that never happened? No I don't think our troops should do that, that would be wrong (had it actually happened). However, that would in no way excuse the actions of these lunatics.
'Isn't this like the 5th ballot you've made about the Quran being flushed or destroyed?'
No.
What would be wrong with using pages from the Koran to wipe my ass? If someone doesn't like that that is too damn bad. They can go f themselves. I really don't give a damn what the "Arab Street" has to say. When did it happen that American news organizations had to censure themselves so some stupid and backward people won't act like the basest humans and go on a rampage and kill people.
Let's not forget that the vast majority of the people held at Gitmo aren't exactly their for singing out of tune during choir practice>!!
Got a little heated up back there. That wasn't suppose to be an attack as it may have sounded like. Back to the topic.
This doesn't have anything to do with religion since Islam would not support this kind of act. Nationalism is probably the reason since religion plays a big role in patriotism in these countries.
Did they overreact? Yes, I think so, I think they should have ignored it.
Did Islam have anything to do with it? I wouldn't say so because the religion does not approve this kind of violent act.
Islam = violence. There is no where in the world where Islam has a big hold that there isn't terrible violence and death and oppression.
Noone can demonstrate legitimately that Islam is the "religion of peace". I think that all the other big religions could claim that much easier than Islam does. It is a huge lie to say that Islam is peaceful.
"Did Islam have anything to do with it? I wouldn't say so because the religion does not approve this kind of violent act."
They sure hide it well.
Would you say the christians of the middle ages were violent? I would, they had the crusades, witch burnings, pogroms against jews and other non-christians, etc. And yet christianity says to love they neighbor, turn the other cheek and all that. And medievil europe is about the level of development islam is at right now. It is a violent religion if the majority of it's adherents eithe practice violence in its name or fail to condemn violence committed by others. When a christian blows up an abortion clinic how long do you have to wait for a nationwide condemnation from all major church leaders? It happens before all the pieces hit the ground. How long do you have to wait for a massive condemnation against terrorism from all the major muslim religious leaders? Well 911 was about 3 years ago and the clocks still running.
Let's take a hypothetical religion here. In that religion they clearly state that none of it's adherents shall drink. However, a significant portion of their population are raging alcoholics, while the rest of the people either cheer them on or remain silent. When you ask 'isn't that hypocritical' the say 'don't worry about it, we don't have any drinking problems in our culture, our religion specifically forbids it'. Wouldn't you call them hypocrites?
"They sure hide it well."
The media has a habit of focusing on the radicals and extremists on both sides in order to get a good story. I'm not sure of the exact number but the number of muslims in the world exceeds 1 billion. The number of "religion crimes" that happen in the world barely represent 1% of that billion. Remember that.
FOR YOUR SECOND POINT/PARAGRAPH
Religion can't evolve, religion can't change. The Bible isn't suppose to change and the Quran isn't suppose to change. The Bible today isn't suppose to be any different than the Bible 600 years ago. Same with the Quran. Do you agree with that statement?
If the Bible inspired people to do all that 600 years ago then it should do the same today. Either that or there are very very few Christians who go by the Bible. That goes same for the Quran. Do you agree with those statements?
And for last, have you read either the Bible or the Quran?
"The media has a habit of focusing on the radicals and extremists on both sides in order to get a good story. I'm not sure of the exact number but the number of muslims in the world exceeds 1 billion. The number of "religion crimes" that happen in the world barely represent 1% of that billion. Remember that."
And how many muslims have stood up to condemn these attacks? A few, but the vast majority remain silent or offer their support. Remember that.
And of course religions evolve. CHristianity of today is nothing like christianity of the 1100s. They don't burn people at the stake, or launch crusades or any of that. No, the book doesn't change (not much anyway) but the interpretation of it does. You could read the bible and use it to go on a 12 state killing spree, or you could use it to justify giving all your free time to the poor. There is room for interpreting any religious text and how they choose to read it says alot about that religion.
"And how many muslims have stood up to condemn these attacks? A few, but the vast majority remain silent or offer their support. Remember that."
So have you ever condemned the US army for the hundereds of atrocities they've "accidentally" commited it their 200 year old history. Or maybe you can condemn them for the crimes they committed in the last 50 years...
"...but the interpretation of it does. You could read the bible and use it to go on a 12 state killing spree, or you could use it to justify giving all your free time to the poor. There is room for interpreting any religious text and how they choose to read it says alot about that religion."
Uhhh, it's like that in all religions. 1000 years ago Christians COULD HAVE (if they wanted to) interpreted the Bible and feed the poor but they choose not to. Maybe it's the nation and people that have to evolve, not the religion.
"Uhhh, it's like that in all religions. 1000 years ago Christians COULD HAVE (if they wanted to) interpreted the Bible and feed the poor but they choose not to. Maybe it's the nation and people that have to evolve, not the religion. "
That's exactly my point. A religion is nothing but a sum of beliefs that certain people hold. If those beliefs change, so does the relgion.
"That's exactly my point. A religion is nothing but a sum of beliefs that certain people hold. If those beliefs change, so does the relgion."
No it's the people who change. The people of Western Europe are the ones who changed not Christianity. Christianity opposed "Enlightened thinkers" as they were called. Remember the Vatican and how many people they executed, they'd do the same thing now if the law didn't stop them from doing it.
Can I get an answer for my previous question?
EXAMPLE OF MY POINT:
In the middle east the Mullahs are the ones who have control over what people think. Same way during the middle ages Lords had control over what the workers thought. Maybe it's the middle east that has to evolve because this ISN'T a problem in European-Islamic countries. Albania, Turkey, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Kosovo have next to zero radicals in their territories (and if there are any they are usually from the middle east that also end up being deported). I strongly believe that this is a middleeast thing rather than an Islam thing.
LD: if you were to wipe out all christians would the religion still exist? Obviously not. A religion is nothing without members, they are the ones who make it what it is. Therefore what it's members do reflects on the religion, at least until god/allah/zues however comes down here and clears up his position on the matter.
And what previous question were you refering to?
"A religion is nothing without members, they are the ones who make it what it is."
I agree, and the majority of muslims aren't Jihadists.
My question was a response to this comment:
"And how many muslims have stood up to condemn these attacks? A few, but the vast majority remain silent or offer their support. Remember that."
My question was would you ever stand up and condemn the crimes the US military has commited in its long history? In public? A public (Texas) where the majority support the army?
Take Afghanistan as an example. The majority is Muslim but their renewed government is allowing western customs like business and putting women to work. See how the people have been reformed. The religion is the same but the people have changed.
NOTE: I'M NOT SAYING THIS EXCUSES THE IRAQ WAR EVEN IF SOMEONE BENEFITED FROM IT.
Like I said in your article, the media can't cover anything. It can't cover ALL of the muslims against Al-Qaeda because it's impossible and won't really be popular among America's audience. It's not a "fun" topic to watch. Get what I'm saying? Take Al-Qaeda's estimated number of militants, then take the total number of muslims and you tell me how much they represent.
Why not? In L.A. people were so outraged by the beating of Rodney King that they all went berzerkers and stole steros.
A free stero and a case of beer is a good cure for social injustice.
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