COMMENTS:
Not an atheist, but felt compelled to ask the following question:
"CHRISTIANS: DO YOU EVER WORRY THAT YOU ARE SQUANDERING YOUR ONE OPPORTUNITY TO LIFE A FULL LIFE BY BELIEVING IN SOMETHING THAT MIGHT WELL BE UNTRUE?"
Or, at least a VERSION of God which might be untrue...
well if we are wrong we won't have as much to lose
Hell is a Christian concept and so is irrelevant to an athiest.
If God exists he is clealry quite evil ( natural disasters, constant punishment for both the gulity and the innocent from birth etc), so im sure he would be sending EVERYONE to hell whether you believe in him or not
I do what I enjoy doing in life. If that's a crime in God's eyes (If found to exist, however it's unlikely IMO)and it's not allowed, making me unworthy of entering Heaven. Then that's the last place I'd want to be anyway! Give me the fire, the Devil, strippers and beer over heaven anytime.
first - if there is a hell - i don't accept that belief in god is the deciding factor regarding whether you "go" there or not.
second - some of the people who claim they believe in god are not the kind of people i want to hang around with, in fact they really creep me out.
and third - in heaven there is no beer.
oic
griffon007, being a Catholic, as far as I know has never stopped me from living a full life. I don't think that there has to be some sort of denial in life to achieve happiness in the after-life. There are certainly some things that i think help "getting into heaven" but I don't believe in a 'vengful Lord' or that 'God is evil'. I don't think that God is all that interested in the day to day life of people. And also I don't think that God cares what religion you use to go towards 'him'. I view it more of as a wheel with spokes and God is the hub. And the animists, atheists, deists, multiple god believers, protestants, catholics, muslims, hidus, whatever have a unique path to God
or that there is one truth path to God. That wouldn't make a lot of sense even in the context of believing that Jesus IS the path to God. Or it isn't inconsistent to believe that AND believe in a particular faith system.
What is funny is that even though this is a specific ballot about atheis I think only steelhamster actually answered the question. lightreaper too.
^ meant that none of those religions or lack of religions have a unique path to 'God'.
^ Ok, Ok! Add, 'no, I don't worry about it' at the start of my comment. Happy now? I thought the fact that I wrote what did made that quite clear. :o)
i didn't say ALL the people who believe in god larry - just some of them
:-)
Inter: Mine was only a philosophical response.
I remember "Pascal's Wager" which stated the argument that a person was better served by believing in the Christian God than disbelieving because in believing the Christian lost nothing, and might well gain heaven. On the other hand, Pascal said that the unbeliever might be giving up heaven.
My answer to this argument is that many Christians, and I am not aiming this at anyone, live lives of fear and self-loathing because parts of their human nature seem to conflict with the "right" way they are taught. If things aren't as taught in Christianity, then might not this conflicted person be giving up his/her one shot at happiness by buying into, believing, the Christian beliefs?
And, another criticism of Pascal might be that if a person just behaved as if he believed, wouldn't he/she be guilty of bearing "false witness?"
This is not a closely help belief/opinion of mine; I think all religions have much to offer humankind: All orient man toward the mystery and invite him to consider the miraculous universe we inhabit, and give him hope of some greater, happier world.
Some religions, however, seem to go too far in suffocating ordinary human longings -- transforming them into "sin" and making people unhappy.
Just some thoughts on a lazy Saturday afternoon after raking leaves...
seriously - the idea of karma appeals to me more than a judging god. if we are to be judged, i think in the end we judge ourselves - we know whether what we do is right or not regardless of whether or not we are willing to admit it. and if there is a hell, it is a state of remorse? regret? guilt for what we've done - or maybe it's just the cosmos getting even - the universe trying to shed some light on the error of our ways. i know the "image" of god varies from belief to belief, and at the risk of offending someone, which is not my intent, i just think the idea that there is a god who takes a specific individual interest in each of our lives is somewhat presumptuous and egotistical, as if god had human emotions.
Do you have some sort of computer that allows you to rake leaves AND comment here? I want one to!!! lol
I just wanted to point out that the question was for atheists and your comment being first immediately attacked christians.
Why the antipathy?
I would have totally left this ballot alone, as a Christian, but just read the comments.
If you are an atheist then why do you have to attack Christians?
I think firman asked an interesting question, and I don't know whether or not he is an atheist or something else, but I have wondered about that very same issue in the past.
So if you are an atheist why not just answer that question, like sh or lr and move on?
Or if the question itself invokes some emotion then why not express that emotion without an ad hominem attack on Christianity?
I should not have made a comment either, now that I read the ballot again,it was addressed to atheist
Atheist or not, Everyone's entitled to comment on a ballot.
If there is a God and he sent people to hell for simply not believeing in him...even if they were wonderful people..then it shows me what type of God he is. He'd be a prick. I wouldn't want to spend the rest of eternity with such an asshole anyway.
Internal, I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't comment or answer on this ballot out of respect for the ballot maker. Also I refrain from ballots that say for non-Americans or whatever.
I wasn't telling larry or anyone else to not participate.
I didn't think that you were doing that Inter, I get your point though. I do the same myself on ballots asking Americans only, but as you say it's at your own discretion. On an open ballot site such as this, I wouldn't restrict a ballot to one particular group. I might ask that group a question but would be quite happy with input from anyone as long as it stayed roughly on topic.
No I didn't think that. What I meant was that for myself I wouldn't have participated except to take griff to task for that first comment. But then larry mentioned something, and I was talking to him in the sense that it is better (for me) to leave ballots that are specifically not for me to the people they are for. For example Counciltucky's ballots on the private area about B&W presidential elections. I wouldn't vote on the Dem/Libertarian ones because that would be skewing them. Although I would have liked to vote for the weakest character there. that's all.
God, Heaven and Hell are the creations of MAN'S imagination.
There has never been ANY proof that they exist.
It is the job of religion to make you FEAR the unknown so you will seek comfort in their LIES!
Most atheists don't break the ten commandments (well not much anyway) whereas many Christians and churches have pictures and necklaces and stained-glass windows featuring images of so-called Christ. Hey! You're NOT SUPPOSED to make any graven images, you religious loonies!
Are Christians worried about some African or South Pacific God's vengeance? No. Why, because Christians don’t believe in those gods. Atheists not only don’t believe in those specific gods but all gods. Which is why the concept of hell is ridiculous to us.
umm, actually i think youll find I answered the question inter regnum
ahh but I don't agree with you.
hell, if there is one or more gods, and they're like the christian stereotype, wanting blind faith or else, they are vain, stupid, and hypocritical. an omnipotent being wouldn't be such. omnipotent being would realise that if somebody doesn't believe, it's because they were never given reason to, and omnipotent beings would respect that.
For an atheist to ask someone to prove that God exists, would have to mean that they have already proven that he does not exist or they are not sure. Now if they have proven that God doesn't exists, explain that to us. Then, by default you have to then explain existance, creation, our purpose here, the complexity of the earth to make sense of reality. I DON'T WANT TO DEBATE. Rather let's discuss this because we all can agree that there is one truth. Either God exists or he doesn't. Now if the atheist isn't sure, than i suggest he finds that out. INVESTIGATE WITHOUT BIAS. If God exists, (which in my opinion he does), he'll show you. Now i would be remmissed if I didn't acknowledge that I feel I can prove God's existence. In fact he has already proven it himself, and made himself evident through creation. Deep down everyone knows there is a God. To think otherwise, would mean putting your faith in ideologies and theories that men have created. For what is science? Is it nothing more than theory? Theories always change. That statement is true. (Example: the round world theory) Even scientist can't answer WHY. They can answer how, but not why. The fact of the matter is people have hardened there hearts against God. Most atheists either hate religion entirely or fear it. But nevertheless, the atheist is left with WHY? Let's forget about hell or the bible or God for a second. To the atheist: Why are you here? How did you get here? Why is everything in order? Now, Why ask why? Well everyone asks why. Why do bad things happen? Why can't I believe in whatever? etc. Hell is not a joke. There is no beer, no love, no fun, no hope, no second chances, it's just death, hate, darkness and everlasting pain. Your worst nightmares can't compare with it. Why take the chance? This seems like pure foolishness to some. Some of you are mad right now and are thinking of every name to call me. So after you are done cursing me or being mad. Look to yourself and ask, what if he's right. Can you answer why?
your rant is invalid. since you are the one making the positive assertion, the burden of proof is on you. we are not making a positive assertion, because it's impossible to positively assert a negative, or prove a negative.
Hello neothe1. I am not trying to persuade or prove God to you. I am asking you to think to yourself, since atheists don't believe in God, try to give an account of how things came to be. Thus...why? I feel putting you hope in any science is futile, since they can't give this answer that any atheist needs. I was reading one of your comments on "is all of creationism B.S." In it you said, "even absolute proof, absolute certainty, would not defeat belief. What did you mean? Is this to say that if there is absolute truth to God's existence, then that wouldn't defeat your belief. Your comment was interesting. Nevertheless, If you would like, I would love to share my view about God's existence and why I believe he exists without a shadow of doubt. Reply if you want to discuss this further. I just wanted to make sure that even if you did have absolute proof, that you would not say the proof cannot defeat your belief. If that is the case, then discssing evidence of God with you is futile because you are going to believe what you want to anyway.
"I am not trying to persuade or prove God to you."
then there's no discussion. burden of proof is on you. if you have no proof to give, that makes you irrational
"I am asking you to think to yourself, since atheists don't believe in God, try to give an account of how things came to be."
ah yes, the same old response i've been getting since i was 6. "oh yeah? well who made you!".
you know, some of us have accepted that there are things we can't know, that we don't have all the answers. that's thew definition of agnosticism.
"Thus...why?"
no, no, there is no why. why is a manmade concept. there is no why in nature. everything has a cause, but a cause is not the same thing as a reason.
" feel putting you hope in any science is futile, since they can't give this answer that any atheist needs."
we don't need answers. it is the question that drives us.
" was reading one of your comments on "is all of creationism B.S." In it you said, "even absolute proof, absolute certainty, would not defeat belief. What did you mean? Is this to say that if there is absolute truth to God's existence, then that wouldn't defeat your belief."
no, i have no belief. i meant that even absolute proof of a god's nonexistence (which is impossible, by the way, you can't disprove something's existence), belief would remain. facts are nothing against faith. look up proverbs 14:8.
"Your comment was interesting. Nevertheless, If you would like, I would love to share my view about God's existence and why I believe he exists without a shadow of doubt."
which makes you irrational and immoral. you haven't thought it through yourself, how do you expect to explain it to me?
You do have belief in something. Let's start with what you do know. You know you are here even though you don't know why. You know you didn't have to be here. You can see the world around you. You do know that mankind had nothing to do with the world or the universe. Just look at the clouds or the stars for example. Think about it. Mankind had nothing to do with that. Neither could explosions or science create this. Even you are a miracle. Think about it, you didn't choose to be here. Also, you aren't here by mistake. You didn't have to be here, but for some reason you are. There has to be something that has intelligence to make people and the world with such amazing order. Do you believe this. What do/did you choose to believe.
I can give you the truth but will you BELIEVE it. (The truth is there is a God. This God loves you. He has made himself evident in nature and the complexities of this world and even in you conscience (deep down you know God exists). Since you gave me a verse, I'll give you one. Romans 1:19-2:11. Consider the bible. It explains what I've just said. INVESTIGATE! Ask questions about yours and others beliefs. Statements without prior investigations are nothing but opinions. Opinions are not solid beliefs. Find the facts. Start with what you know to be true, then go from there. If you were to ask me, the bible gives evidences for these questions. There were scientific and historical thing written in the bible hundreds of years before modern science discovered it. This isn't my argument, this is what I know to be true. You can call it immoral, unintelligent, stupid, or whatever. If this world is all we had to look forward to, then this would be a pitiful existence. But it isn't.
I know the truth. FORGET ABOUT BURDEN OF PROOF. Ask yourself. You find out. I can't do this for you. God exists, it is up to you to believe, not for me to persaude you. JUST ASK YOURSELF WHY? I ALREADY KNOW THAT IS A QUESTION YOU HAVE (I don't believe questions drive you. Why ask question and not find answers?)
"You do have belief in something."
no, i don't.
"Let's start with what you do know."
i know that i exists. i don't have to believe that, i know it. but that is all i am capable of knowing, as a limited being.
"You know you are here even though you don't know why."
no, i don't know i'm "here". where is "here"? is "here" a location, or an illusions, or perhaps both are the same thing
"You know you didn't have to be here."
maybe i did, i don't know that.
"You can see the world around you."
so it would appear, but appearances can be deceiving, and often are.
"You do know that mankind had nothing to do with the world or the universe."
i can't even know that there is a mankind. alll i know is that i am. everything else relies on perception, perspective, and interpretation, which are flawed.
"Just look at the clouds or the stars for example."
okay, we'll go by the assumtion that that which we perceive is accurate, if not our interpretation.
"Think about it. Mankind had nothing to do with that."
so?
"Neither could explosions or science create this."
well, science is based on observation of reality, therefore everything that happens is science. and yes, an explosion could very well be the cause of the form matter has taken, but it can't create matter, which the "big bang" theory claims it to, wich is wy i don't accept that theory as logical. i migt simply not understand it, but it sounds exactly the same as what you're arguing, that being what i call the "POOF! tadaaa!" theory
"Even you are a miracle."
not really.
"Think about it, you didn't choose to be here."
so?
"Also, you aren't here by mistake."
you can't know that.
"You didn't have to be here, but for some reason you are."
there's a lot of things that diddn't have to be that are.
"There has to be something that has intelligence to make people and the world with such amazing order."
no, absolutely not. that is a small-minded human kind of assumption.
"Do you believe this. What do/did you choose to believe."
i choose to believe nothing. true wisdom comes from knowing that you know nothing.
"I can give you the truth but will you BELIEVE it."
no, you cannot give me the truth, because you cannot know it.
"The truth is there is a God."
you have no proof of that, and no logic to back it up. you cannot make such an unfounded claim
"This God loves you. He..."
so there's only one and it's a male, huh? so you'rre just mindlessly spouting the rhetoric of some religion. you have not formed any of this yourself, these are not your words, you have put no thought into any of this.
"has made himself evident in nature and the complexities of this world and even in you conscience (deep down you know God exists)."
you keep telling yourself that.
"Since you gave me a verse, I'll give you one. Romans 1:19-2:11. Consider the bible. It explains what I've just said."
exactly. so you haven't said anything.
"INVESTIGATE! Ask questions about yours and others beliefs."
hypocrite. faith is about not questioning, following blindly, for fear of being wrong.
"Statements without prior investigations are nothing but opinions."
no, opinions are formed through research and thought.
"Opinions are not solid beliefs."
exactly, annd belief is immoral.
"Find the facts. Start with what you know to be true, then go from there."
impossible. it is impossible to know anthing for sure acept one's own existence.
"If you were to ask me, the bible gives evidences for these questions."
of course you would, becaiuse you haven't actually done any questioning, you've turned off your brain ad taken it on faith.
"There were scientific and historical thing written in the bible hundreds of years before modern science discovered it."
like what? the disk of the earth? bats are birds? rabbits chew cud? those are all in there.
"This isn't my argument, this is what I know to be true."
this is what you want to be true, what you have fooled yourself into believing
"You can call it immoral, unintelligent, stupid, or whatever. If this world is all we had to look forward to, then this would be a pitiful existence."
well it is. live with it.
listen to yourself. you havew argued that life has meaning, therefore god exists, and if god diddn't exist, that would be bad because life does not have meaning. make up your mind.
"But it isn't.
I know the truth."
no, you don't.
"FORGET ABOUT BURDEN OF PROOF."
oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you.
"Ask yourself. You find out."
i did. i reasoned that real deities probably don't exist (because that's wat you do when you have no prof of something, assume it doesn't exist, otherwise you could make up just about anything and have this same argument over it), and the gods of religions, like your islamic god, cannot exist, because for allah to exist, zeus would have to not exist, and for brahma to exist, ammun ra would have to not exist, and so on, and since no religion has anything more going for it than faith, no one is more likely to be true than the other.
"God exists, it is up to you to believe, not for me to persaude you. JUST ASK YOURSELF WHY?"
there is no why. live with it. face the harsh truth instead of living in a comforting lie.
"I ALREADY KNOW THAT IS A QUESTION YOU HAVE (I don't believe questions drive you. Why ask question and not find answers?)"
why ask questions and then make up answers? you can't learn anything from lying to yourself. there are many many things we cannot know. just accept it and move on with life. stop lying to yourself. go uot and learn, question, reason, seek out truth, dont just make it up. or at the very least, live your own lie, not the one that's been fed to you.
There is absolutly no reason for organisms to exist. We work, party, go to school...most of the tie life sucks. We like all species on this planet or other planets, are a completly random event. Every force that is considerd supernatural or other forces besides what we precieve to be natural, comes back to nature. We, along with the concept of "God", is highly overrated though intellegent through something like evolution, and nature is highly underrated. There is NO afterlife, I highly doubt it at least. It makes us feel good to think there is.
i agree entirely, but we can never forget the fact that we can very well be wrong.
Neothe1, you make it seem as if I just chose to believe in God because of the way things are in the world. That I would use God as a crutch to get through life; to make myself feel better as a way to brainwash myself to a world that I know is bad. Like I just forgot about this world, and made up a God to mask my true feelings. This isn't true. I had to ask questions. For example, why do I believe in Jesus? Why the God of the bible? Why not any other God? Why not atheism/agnosticsm? Why not buhdism or Islam? It is because every other God fails in comparison to Jesus. I wasn't dooped. The choice is always left the individual. Muhammad Ali started as a christian, then converted to Islam. He made a choice. I have learned that Jesus is who he says he is. It is amazing to me when I pray and ask for things specifically, and God answers my prayers down to the word. To me it couldn't be chance. There have been things that I know only God could be responsible for. See we can't know everything. But within the percentage of things I do know, I KNOW there is a God. For he has proven himself. But what if there exists God outside of the percentage of things you do not know? Could you say he doesn't exist with certainty?
Neothe 1, you seem like a very intelligent person. But don't use your intellect as a form of enlightenment. That you are too intelligent to "be tricked" into believing in a God. Like there are millions of people brainswashed, but you're not.
In fact you remind me a lot of a philosopher named Descartes. You seem to take everything I say and develop it into a philosophical argument with premises and conclusions. Do you believe as he believes. His first certainty is that he existed and is a thinking thing. Do you believe like he does? The only thing you said you know is I am here. Even Descartes realized that something had to have more intelligence than he did since he exists. What are your thoughts on this subject?
"Neothe1, you make it seem as if I just chose to believe in God because of the way things are in the world."
that's what you've been saying.
"That I would use God as a crutch to get through life; to make myself feel better as a way to brainwash myself to a world that I know is bad. Like I just forgot about this world, and made up a God to mask my true feelings."
that is exactly what it is. faith has it's basis in greed and self-interest. ignorance is bliss
"I had to ask questions. For example, why do I believe in Jesus? Why the God of the bible? Why not any other God? Why not atheism/agnosticsm? Why not buhdism or Islam?"
so you're uneducated too.
1: agnosticism is defined as lack of belief, you can't believe in agnosticism. the same goes for atheism, which is defined as the lack of a specific belief
2: islam is the same religion as christianity. it's a newer version, it worships the same god.
"It is because every other God fails in comparison to Jesus."
yet if you read the bible it's self, you'd know that he was not a god, never claimed to be, and frequently told people otherwise.
"I wasn't dooped. The choice is always left the individual. Muhammad Ali started as a christian, then converted to Islam. He made a choice. I have learned that Jesus is who he says he is."
you know who he says he is? a human being, a servant of allah. read the book.
"It is amazing to me when I pray and ask for things specifically, and God answers my prayers down to the word. To me it couldn't be chance. There have been things that I know only God could be responsible for."
back to "know" again. you cannot know. you can only fool yourself.
"See we can't know everything. But within the percentage of things I do know, I KNOW there is a God."
the percentage of things you know is that you exist. assuming you actually do exist, that is all you are capable of knowing.
"For he has proven himself. But what if there exists God outside of the percentage of things you do not know? Could you say he doesn't exist with certainty?"
i say nothing with certainty. you do. therefore, you are irrational.
"Neothe 1, you seem like a very intelligent person. But don't use your intellect as a form of enlightenment."
that is all there is.
"That you are too intelligent to "be tricked" into believing in a God. Like there are millions of people brainswashed, but you're not."
it's their choice to remain that way. they took the blue pill.
"Do you believe like he does?"
how many times must i say this. i am agnostic. i do not believe.
The only thing you said you know is I am here.
"Even Descartes realized that something had to have more intelligence than he did since he exists. What are your thoughts on this subject?"
that is an illogical and baseless assumption. it's also a double standard. these "musts" that are made to apply to humans do not apply to gods.
You said:
so you're uneducated too.
"1: agnosticism is defined as lack of belief, you can't believe in agnosticism. the same goes for atheism, which is defined as the lack of a specific belief "
All I was saying is Why did I choose christianity and not atheism? (Thus I said, why not atheism or agnosticism)
You said:
2: islam is the same religion as christianity. it's a newer version, it worships the same god.
That isn't true in the least. We worship Jesus, they worship Allah. They think Jesus was just a prophet and a man. We don't. Their God says things totally against the bible. Most muslims would call christians infedels. The Crusades are an example of how different our religions are. Why did they fight muslims if at all if we believed in the same God. Allah is not Jesus.
You said:
you know who he says he is? a human being, a servant of allah. read the book.
Allah isn't mentioned in the bible not once. Jesus was no servent of this god. I do read the book. I gaurantee that you will never find Allah mentioned in the bible. You would never find one verse. He did claim to be God. Look at the comment I sent you on the other ballot.
Just because you say you can't know anything and that you can't know anything for certain, You say I'm irrational to think otherwise? What makes that statement you made rational?
You make it seem as if you don't know that you are reading right now. You would say that my body isn't real. I just know I exist. Where do you get your reasoning? What is the basis of these conclusions?
At one point you were a young child. And even thought as a child. What was life before you thought to yourself that you only existed. Were you being fooled and later became enlightened when you found philosophy? The only way I think you could have came to this conclusion is to have been taught this in philosophy. If I am wrong, I apoligize. If I am right, Realize that even philosophy has no answers. Don't adopt philosophical views, because they consist of other people (who in your opinion may have not existed) who just reflected and came up with explanations. You exist and are a thinking thing. Yet you have adopted ideologies of people you don't believe exist. If you do believe they exist, it is based of assumption.
You said about intelligence: "that is all there is".
Doesn't it seem contradictory that you've gained your intelligence from people and books you don't believe exist? Are you really intelligent then, if your intelligence comes from imaginary things. If intelligence is all there is then, life would be unstable. Intelligence fades with age. We forget things. Intelligence can be taken away in an instance. Example: a human vegetable.
You said:
"it's their choice to remain that way. they took the blue pill".
I hope you were joking. Life is not the matrix. The matrix was just a movie.
"how many times must i say this. i am agnostic. i do not believe. "
You may not believe anything, but you think like him.
ARE YOU SCARED OF RELIGION? MOST PEOPLE WHO FEEL THE WAY YOU DO ARE EITHER SCARED OF OR HATE RELIGION. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S RIGHT SO THEY JUST CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING. I am probably wrong, but what is the case for you? How did you come to believe the way you do?
Believe is defined as: To accept as true or real
To choose not to believe in Christ, one does choose to believe in something. In other words, when you chose not to believe in Christ (or anything else), you chose to believe that Christ is not God, you chose to believe that only you exist and are an agnostic. You chose to believe you can't know anything. You except these things as truth. SEE, AGNOSTICS DO BELIEVE IN THINGS. If agnostic is a lack of belief, yet you believe that you are here and that there is no God, then how are you agnostic? How can anybody be agnostic if not believing is to believe in the opposite. You do believe in what I've listed above, you just said this in your previous statements. You can say that you don't, or that belief is not knowledge or whatever, but to choose not to believe in God, is the same as believeing that there is no God. If you don't believe in either one, then that means you don't know, because one of them has to be true. They can't both be true.
I am puzzled at one thing. You say you don't believe in God, yet you know a lot of verses in the bible. Were you once a christian or something?
I meant Jesus claimed to be God
It is impossible to understand supernatural things when trying to figure them out using philosphical logic. The two don't mix. Most people that do this choose not to believe what they can't prove.
"All I was saying is Why did I choose christianity and not atheism?"
no, you said believe.
"That isn't true in the least."
like i said, you're uneducated
"We worship Jesus, they worship Allah."
wrong. christianty, like the other 2 abrahamic religions, worships the ggod of abraham, who, in the arabic language, as well as the aramaic language which jesus of nazereth spoke, is called allah. the difference is that christianity elevates jesus, know, as "isa (peace be upon him)" in islam, above his stattus as a prophet o that of a man-god, and more recent sects of christianity, based on a misinterpretation of the words "spirit" have started to think of him as god, and not god, father, and son, and wholely undefinable holy spirit, and all at once, and none at all, and so on.
"They think Jesus was just a prophet and a man. We don't. Their God says things totally against the bible."
well, technically, yes. in islam, all people are equal.
Most muslims would call christians infedels. The Crusades are an example of how different our religions are. Why did they fight muslims if at all if we believed in the same God. Allah is not Jesus.
You said:
you know who he says he is? a human being, a servant of allah. read the book.
"Allah isn't mentioned in the bible not once."
that's because it's translated in ENGLISH. the english word for allah is "god".
"Jesus was no servent of this god."
have you by any chance seen the passion of the christ?
"I do read the book. I gaurantee that you will never find Allah mentioned in the bible."
liuke i said, you are uneducated.
"You would never find one verse. He did claim to be God. Look at the comment I sent you on the other ballot."
you had one such occurrence, while i posted many flat-out denials, from the same book. or do you think he was lying all those other times?
"Just because you say you can't know anything and that you can't know anything for certain, You say I'm irrational to think otherwise?"
yes. certainty is impossible. you beleive yourself certain. therefore, you are irrational.
"What makes that statement you made rational?"
the fact that i made that conclusion objectively. don't you watch csi?
"You make it seem as if you don't know that you are reading right now."
i don't. i have a pretty good idea, but i might just think that i'm reading. haven't you seen the matrix?
"You would say that my body isn't real."
no, i wouldn't. i would simply acknowledge the chance that it might not be. you could be an AI preach-bot. a ssophitiated version of this: alicebot.org/
"I just know I exist."
if you do, you would. just as i know i exist, but you do not know i exist.
"Where do you get your reasoning? What is the basis of these conclusions?"
observation. that's what learning is. but you wouldn't understand learning, it's contrary to faith.
"At one point you were a young child. And even thought as a child."
a child thinks the same way as an adult (though most adults don't think, while children are still being taught not to think)
"What was life before you thought to yourself that you only existed."
okay, you oviosly do not understand the concept of "i think, therefore, i am". i am not saying i am all that exists. i am saying i am all that i know for sure exists, my own existence is all i am capable of knowing, as a limited being. but you are faithful, you can't understand the idea of admitting one's own limits.
"Were you being fooled and later became enlightened when you found philosophy?"
somewhat, yes. but i was not fooled as much as this system would have preferred, or we would not be having this discussion. i'd likely be at worship.
"The only way I think you could have came to this conclusion is to have been taught this in philosophy."
no. i discovered this myself, and later discovered such conclusions were also reached by the likes of socrates, the buddha, and even thomas jefferson, and gene roddenberry.
"If I am wrong, I apoligize. If I am right, Realize that even philosophy has no answers."
exactly. there are no ansawers because we are not yet capable of learning them. we have to searh for answers. although we have outgrown the need to invent quick-fix answers (though, sadly, most still rely on the old myths, unwilling to accept harsh truths)
"Don't adopt philosophical views, because they consist of other people (who in your opinion may have not existed) who just reflected and came up with explanations."
no, because that goes against the philosophy. that is the way of religion. philosophy doesn't have explanations, just educated estimations.
"You exist and are a thinking thing."
you don't know that. i might be a figment of your imagination. i know that i exist, but you don't.
"If you do believe they exist, it is based of assumption."
exactly. that's why i don't believe.
"Doesn't it seem contradictory that you've gained your intelligence from people and books you don't believe exist?"
no like i said, i formed these opinions myself. socrates just had better wording.
"Are you really intelligent then, if your intelligence comes from imaginary things."
no, then i'm being fooled, but not by choice. while you on the other hand freely and willingly submit to it.
"If intelligence is all there is then, life would be unstable. Intelligence fades with age."
you're thinking of an individual. on the large scale, wisdom ad knowledge just increase, unless deliberately destroyed by faith. when christian rome was dominant in europe, the knowledge of the greeks (things such as "the world is round") was lost, and insane, superstitious pactices (such as bloodletting) became common. it took the islamic civilization t rediscover the knowledge of the greeks, and pull europe out of the dark ages (and then get thrown into their own dark age as a result. they're still in it)
"I hope you were joking. Life is not the matrix. The matrix was just a movie."
and a fantastic one at that. translating the phychological prison of faith into a litteral prison for the mind. a futuristic, sci-fi version of religion.
"ARE YOU SCARED OF RELIGION?"
no. religious people, yes, they're known to do incredible things, unspeakable cruelties.
"MOST PEOPLE WHO FEEL THE WAY YOU DO ARE EITHER SCARED OF OR HATE RELIGION."
no, you're thinking of the fasion atheist, the angry theist, who beleives in a god, but hates it.
"THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S RIGHT SO THEY JUST CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING."
that's how it works. once again, i refer you to proverbs 14:8:
"The wise man looks ahead. The fool attempts to fool himself and won't face facts."
"I am probably wrong, but what is the case for you? How did you come to believe the way you do?"
back to that word "believe" again. i do not believe.
"Believe is defined as: To accept as true or real
To choose not to believe in Christ, one does choose to believe in something. In other words, when you chose not to believe in Christ (or anything else), you chose to believe that Christ is not God, you chose to believe that only you exist and are an agnostic. You chose to believe you can't know anything. You except these things as truth. SEE, AGNOSTICS DO BELIEVE IN THINGS. If agnostic is a lack of belief, yet you believe that you are here and that there is no God, then how are you agnostic?"
you answered your own question
"How can anybody be agnostic if not believing is to believe in the opposite."
listen to yourself. you're saying that lack of belief is belief.
"You do believe in what I've listed above, you just said this in your previous statements. You can say that you don't, or that belief is not knowledge or whatever, but to choose not to believe in God, is the same as believeing that there is no God."
there is a differece between lack of belief and disbelief. like how darkness is not actually a thing, but simply a lack of light. it is not anti-light. it is not a substance at all. it does not exist. it is defined by what it's not.
"If you don't believe in either one, then that means you don't know, because one of them has to be true. They can't both be true."
exactly. i don't know. like i said, you can't comprehend the idea of someone admitting their own limits, so you try to make me guilty of the same arrogance as you. like if you had gone your entire life lying on your side, horizontally, and saw someone standing vertically for the first time in your life. you would attempt to make them lie on their side, because the idea of stading up is too new and revolutionary, too mind-blowing for you to accept.
"I am puzzled at one thing. You say you don't believe in God, yet you know a lot of verses in the bible. Were you once a christian or something?"
how coul i have formed any of my conclusions without first doing research. if i attempted to argue a position, without first learning the subject matter, i would be...... well, you.
Religion has killed millions. Religion is garbage. Thats why I'm a Pantheist. It is a self made kind of thinking, not a religion that many great philosophers such as Spinoza, and Einstein. It carries an atheistic view. If God does exist, he is not perfect. The term perfect I do not believe exists. For something to be perfect everything would have to be perfect and that is non existence. Non existence doesn't exist. Even the void that has existed forever is "something". Of course theres man made concepts of perfect like a perfect circle, but not absolute perfect exists.
I am a Christian. I know the God I worship. The things my God says is not the same things their God says, so they can't be true. The religions may have come from the same person, but we don't have the same beliefs or God. There God goes against what the bible says.
Jesus is not a man-god. He is God who came to earth in a form of a man. From Phillipians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. The bible has scriptures teaching Jesus as God, the koran doesn't. How could we worship the same God and our books that came from our perspective Gods are different.
Jesus is the central truth to Christianity. The issue is what do we believe about Jesus. We cannot equate the religions or the gods, when the cental doctrines are different.
There are many translations in the bible for God, none of which is allah. Some translations are Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, El Elyon, El shaddai, Jehovah nissi, jehovah shalom, etc.
You said:
have you by any chance seen the passion of the christ?
Seen it, Got the dvd.
You said:
you had one such occurrence, while i posted many flat-out denials, from the same book. or do you think he was lying all those other times?
You may have read it but you don't understand the bible. You read it like a normal book. You fail to take into account any of the context. It's like taking one sentence out of a book and basing an argument for what the book is about. The context is Christ humbled himself and became a man. He is God, yet he was and example of how we should be. His greatest will was to do the will of God the Father. This should also be a christians greatest purpose.
You said:
observation. that's what learning is. but you wouldn't understand learning, it's contrary to faith.
You're contradicting yourself. If you don't believe things exist outside of yourself, then how can you say you learn by observation. In your view, observation is an illusion. If you can't be certain that you are observing, then how can you be certain, you have learned anything. If you aren't cerain, then why say it? If you can't know anything, why make statements when none of it would be true?
"okay, you obviously do not understand the concept of "i think, therefore, i am". i am not saying i am all that exists. i am saying i am all that i know for sure exists, my own existence is all i am capable of knowing, as a limited being. but you are faithful, you can't understand the idea of admitting one's own limits. "
Again, you sound just like Descartes in his meditations. I do have limitations. Me believing in God, is not an example of not accepting limitations.
"The wise man looks ahead. The fool attempts to fool himself and won't face facts."
This isn't talking about someone who won't face facts.
You said:
exactly. i don't know. like i said, you can't comprehend the idea of someone admitting their own limits, so you try to make me guilty of the same arrogance as you. like if you had gone your entire life lying on your side, horizontally, and saw someone standing vertically for the first time in your life. you would attempt to make them lie on their side, because the idea of stading up is too new and revolutionary, too mind-blowing for you to accept.
No, it's not that way. Even though we are having this discussion, I have accepted that we believe in what we believe. We have to agree to disagree. You may never believe in God. Even if he is proven to the point, where you can't deny his existence, I still believe you won't change because of a hardened heart towards God. I believe in God, and that won't change.
Using you example about lying horizontally: I am not trying to make you lie horizontally because standing is mind-blowing or revolutionary. It is like saying man, your standing in a pit of fire and don't know it. I'm telling you that your standing in a pit, and you're calling me irrational. The message of the bible is that Jesus came to save the lost. God's will is that none should perish and go to hell. My only reason for discusssing this with you is to let you know there is a God, and he loves you. He died for you so you can know him and receive everlasting life. Since you can't prove him logically, you deny his existence altogether. You have relied on what you have been able to observe and made that your certainty even though you believe you thinking is limited. And you say can't truly observe, yet you base your arguments on them.
"Believe is defined as: To accept as true or real
To choose not to believe in Christ, one does choose to believe in something. In other words, when you chose not to believe in Christ (or anything else), you chose to believe that Christ is not God, you chose to believe that only you exist and are an agnostic. You chose to believe you can't know anything. You except these things as truth. SEE, AGNOSTICS DO BELIEVE IN THINGS. If agnostic is a lack of belief, yet you believe that you are here and that there is no God, then how are you agnostic?"
You dodged this without giving an answer. What is your answer? In your view there can be a God, you just aren't certain, he could love you, but you don't know, YOU ARE HERE, BUT WHY. IF YOU LEARN BY OBSERVING, PONDER THAT QUESTION AND SEE WHAT YOU OBSERVE. If you can't know anything, how do you KNOW YOU CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING? How do you know that?
you said:
how coul i have formed any of my conclusions without first doing research. if i attempted to argue a position, without first learning the subject matter, i would be...... well, you.
You keep attacking me instead of answering the questions for what they are asking you. Maybe I'm not being clear. I know more than you think I know. I've got a college education as you probably have. You're only basis for calling me irrational, uneducated, simple-minded, or arrogant is because I believe in God. Not once have you offered arguments to show me how I may be fooled. You say I am but don't say why. It's just opinion. You just say I am but cannot offer anything to tell me why what you believe is correct. I asked you Why, you said I don't know why. You say you have a lack of belief, yet you see your arguments as true (since you think the fact that you are here is a true statement, that is your belief). To say you have no belief is to say that everything is false. Yet the fact that you know you are here is true to you.
"Religion has killed millions. Religion is garbage. Thats why I'm a Pantheist."
so it's a matter of rebellion, not reason.
"It is a self made kind of thinking, not a religion that many great philosophers such as Spinoza, and Einstein. It carries an atheistic view."
sort of, but it slaps the name "god" on just about anything, so you can still say you believe in god, when you don't. it's in name only. it's highly illogical
"I am a Christian. I know the God I worship."
you cannot know.
"The things my God says is not the same things their God says, so they can't be true."
yes it is. both religions have the same teachings, except that islam removes the old barbaric stuff (how to sell your daughter into slavery, for example), and doesn't follow the misguided idea of jesus being a messiah.
"The religions may have come from the same person, but we don't have the same beliefs or God. There God goes against what the bible says."
no, it does not. you've beenm watching too much fox news.
"Jesus is not a man-god. He is God who came to earth in a form of a man."
which is contrary to scripture.
"From Phillipians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. The bible has scriptures teaching Jesus as God, the koran doesn't."
which means islam got it right, while christian texts are confused and twisted by dark age barbarism.
"How could we worship the same God and our books that came from our perspective Gods are different."
again, whith the exception of the bastardization and barbarism in the bible, the books are identical.
"Jesus is the central truth to Christianity. The issue is what do we believe about Jesus."
yet you think him a liar when he says he's not god.
"We cannot equate the religions or the gods, when the cental doctrines are different."
the central doctrines are identical. peace, equality, and submission.
"There are many translations in the bible for God, none of which is allah. Some translations are Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, El Elyon, El shaddai, Jehovah nissi, jehovah shalom, etc."
none written in arabic or aramaic though.
"Seen it, Got the dvd."
listen to the aramaic dialogue. the word is "allah"
"You may have read it but you don't understand the bible."
because i don't blindly accept it, or conveniently ignore the contradictions?
"You read it like a normal book."
i read it as any book of mythology. it is a book of actual history, warped by primitive superstitions, and garbled by constant mistranslations and manipulations.
"You fail to take into account any of the context. It's like taking one sentence out of a book and basing an argument for what the book is about."
well, if one sentence says one thing, and another says the direct opposite, how can you have faith in the whole thing?
"The context is Christ humbled himself and became a man. He is God, yet he was and example of how we should be. His greatest will was to do the will of God the Father. This should also be a christians greatest purpose."
that is illogical, and inconsistent with the facts.
"You're contradicting yourself. If you don't believe things exist outside of yourself, then how can you say you learn by observation."
it's an educated guess. it's as though you were blindfolded. you don't sit in one spot too afraid to move, but you also don't just take off at a brisk stride, the slowly move ahead cautiously, feeling your way around.
"In your view, observation is an illusion."
could be. not is.
"If you can't be certain that you are observing, then how can you be certain, you have learned anything."
i'm not certain. how many times must i say this.
"If you aren't cerain, then why say it? If you can't know anything, why make statements when none of it would be true?"
again, you're confusing possible illusion with definate illusion, certain illusion.
"Again, you sound just like Descartes in his meditations. I do have limitations. Me believing in God, is not an example of not accepting limitations."
of couse it is. you are unwilling to admit that you cannot know, so you give yourself imaginary certainty, pretend certainty, in a quick-fix answer.
"This isn't talking about someone who won't face facts."
yes, it is. that's what the discussion is, that's what the proverb is.
"No, it's not that way."
then stop trying to apply your small-minded rules to me.
"Even though we are having this discussion, I have accepted that we believe in what we believe."
while those of us who are rational do not believe.
"We have to agree to disagree. You may never believe in God. Even if he is proven to the point, where you can't deny his existence, I still believe you won't change because of a hardened heart towards God."
of course i would. but i'd be damn pissed off that he diddn't tell me sooner. and i it was your god, i would inform it of it's hypocrisy in denying evidence, but demanding belief, giving people free will, and punishing them for eternity for using it. yor god is vain, stupid, and hypocritical, and therefore, flawed, making him unable to exist as a perfect or omnipotent being.
to quote carl sagan: "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. "
"I believe in God, and that won't change."
of course. because you have faith, and you are unable to learn, unwilling to admit error, afraid of change. to quote carl sagan again (he was a brilliant man): "There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."
"I am not trying to make you lie horizontally because standing is mind-blowing or revolutionary. It is like saying man, your standing in a pit of fire and don't know it."
a beter metaphor would be that you are on a raft upstream from a huge waterfall, unwilling to paddle.
"I'm telling you that your standing in a pit, and you're calling me irrational."
oh, you mean me? me standing in a pit of fire? me the analyzer, the observer, the learner, who should heed warnings from the irrational, the ineducable, the metathesiophobic, the willingly blind?
"The message of the bible is that Jesus came to save the lost."
ah yes, and they become his sheep. sheep being a slanderous term meaning blind unthinking follower.
"God's will is that none should perish and go to hell. My only reason for discusssing this with you is to let you know there is a God, and he loves you."
woohoo, here comes the cheese.
"He died for you so you can know him and receive everlasting life. Since you can't prove him logically, you deny his existence altogether."
yadda yadda yadda. are you a human, or a tape recorder?
"You have relied on what you have been able to observe and made that your certainty..."
stop trying to apply your narrowness to me.
"...even though you believe you thinking is limited."
there's that word again.
"And you say can't truly observe, yet you base your arguments on them."
that's all there is.
"Believe is defined as: To accept as true or real
To choose not to believe in Christ, one does choose to believe in something. In other words, when you chose not to believe in Christ (or anything else), you chose to believe that Christ is not God, you chose to believe that only you exist and are an agnostic. You chose to believe you can't know anything. You except these things as truth. SEE, AGNOSTICS DO BELIEVE IN THINGS. If agnostic is a lack of belief, yet you believe that you are here and that there is no God, then how are you agnostic?"
"You dodged this without giving an answer. What is your answer?"
i told you, you answered your own question. you asked:
"If agnostic is a lack of belief, yet you believe that you are here and that there is no God, then how are you agnostic?"
it logically follows that i do not believe that i am here and that there is no God, as i've explained to you so many times.
"In your view there can be a God, you just aren't certain, he could love you, but you don't know, YOU ARE HERE, BUT WHY."
there doesn't need to be a why. there is no why in nature. tthere is a difference between a cause and a reason.
"If you can't know anything, how do you KNOW YOU CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING?"
i don't.
again, you've answered your own question
you really can't get you head around this, can you? i know that i exist. i know nothing else, i am certain of nothing else, i believe nothing.
"You keep attacking me instead of answering the questions for what they are asking you. Maybe I'm not being clear. I know more than you think I know. I've got a college education as you probably have."
ooo, i'm so impressed that you were able to fit society's mold and become a certified cookie-cutter person. you still don't know anything about the subject.
"You're only basis for calling me irrational, uneducated, simple-minded, or arrogant is because I believe in God."
exactly. you believe. therefore you are irrational. it's not a matter of WHAT you believe, but THAT you believe. ou likely believe the sun will rise tomorrow. that is irrational. i on the other hand have concluded logically that the odds are quite good that it will rise tommorow (rise being a perspective-based metaphor).
"Not once have you offered arguments to show me how I may be fooled. You say I am but don't say why."
allow me to link you to my reasoning, as i am tooo sleepy to write it all out again
bestandworst.com/vote.php?id=79809
"It's just opinion."
educated opinion against blind belief
"You just say I am but cannot offer anything to tell me why what you believe is correct."
tthis has got to be the 20th time i've said this. i do not believe.
"(since you think the fact that you are here is a true statement, that is your belief)"
that's not a belief. that i can eve consider the question of my existence proves my existence, but only to me, because everyone else's interpretation goes through perspective and interpretation.
"To say you have no belief is to say that everything is false."
no, it is not. that's just insane.
sort of, but it slaps the name "god" on just about anything, so you can still say you believe in god, when you don't. it's in name only. it's highly illogical
by neothe1 on Oct 21, 2005 7:41pm Yes, Pantheists do slap the name "God" on "it". When I think of "it", I believe nature is very special. It is an atheistic view/approach.
like i said, atheistic, but theistic in name. calling things like nature, love, the universe, light, life, and so on "god" is just stupid. it's a way to say you believe in god, and feel like you believe in god, without actually doing so. hypocrisy.
Neothe1, I replied to your other ballot on
bestandworst.com/vote.php?id=79809
as that ballot is now closed, i have to reply here:
"They use logic as their core "belief"."
back to belief again. belief is illogical.
"If they can't prove it or make sense of it, then it is illogical."
what you've just described is faith. science and philosophy are the opposite.
"However, some atheists I know feel this way because of a hardened heart towards God."
those are angry theists, not atheists. one cannot hate something unless one thinks it exists.
"They are scared of conformity and see their intellectualism as freedom."
well make up your mind. fasion atheism is a kind of conformity.
"As a theist, I also see them as lost."
there it is. you're like the stereotypical man who never asks for directions, and just keeps saying "i'm not lost, i know where i'm going", while the rationalist says "shit, i'm lost. where's that map?"
"But I will treat each and everyone of them with as much respect as possible."
not that i've observed. you've attempted to force your narrow viewpoint on me. you've completely disrespected my, and your, ability to comprehend observable phenomena
The question was asking, "how do YOU view atheists. These are my views. Why are you trying to argue, when all i did was offer my views on what I think an atheist is.
I said:
"However, some atheists I know feel this way because of a hardened heart towards God."
You said:
those are angry theists, not atheists. one cannot hate something unless one thinks it exists.
Trust me, these are people that I know. They are atheists, not angry theists. They don't believe there is a God. They have hardened the hearts (put up guards) and refuse to believe in a God. Everytime you mention God, the get angry and fustrated. They believe God is so imaginary, the get angry at my so called "ignorance". Thus they have hardened their hearts.
"They use logic as their core "belief"."
back to belief again. belief is illogical.
You are an agnostic as you've already stated. The question is about atheists. Your view about belief does not apply to my view of atheists. Not all atheists feel that way.
"The question was asking, "how do YOU view atheists. These are my views. Why are you trying to argue, when all i did was offer my views on what I think an atheist is."
because, as i've already explained, i hate it when people are wrong.
"Trust me, these are people that I know. They are atheists, not angry theists."
they might call themselves atheist, but they're not. no angry theist calls themself an angry theist
"You are an agnostic as you've already stated. The question is about atheists."
wow. you really are clueless
atheist means "not theist". snyone who is not theist is atheist. including agnostics.
I believe this makes you an agnostic, not an atheist.
Voted : No
It would be thoroughly illogical to 'worry' about going to a 'hell' if you're an 'atheist', for you know there is no such thing as a 'hell', and No One ever goes to a 'hell', it is pure fantasy and complete fiction. It is very unfortunate that Anyone believe in 'a hell'.
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