COMMENTS:
Not sure anything can ever repay the atrocities of the Jewish people during WWII and before.
Thats a hard one. I suspect that british people will see this differently than most europeans. There were certainly anti jewish sentiment running through the corridors of power. Most definately plans to extradite jews. But it never really affected the general population as it did in europe.
Like the war itself, british people have a detatched feeling towards it. If your a french mand living in normandy you probably pass reminders all day. But in britain we have discussions along the lines of "should we give up on rememberance day?" We feel somehow that its not our problem any more.
I guess thats why I find it hard to say.
Well you shouldn't give up remembrance day because your country along with the US was complicit in the Holocaust. You could have offered to take in hundreds of thousands of Jews in the UK or let more than 10 or 20 thousand a year emigrate to Israel. The Arabs could have pushed to allow this also. You didn't and they had nowhere to go and were slaughtered.
All you have to do is look at the decisions made at the Evian conference. Held in 1938, the couldn't even pass even a resolution condemning German treatment of the Jews. Prior to the conference, the United States and Great Britain made an agreement with each other - the British promised not to bring up the fact that the US was not filling its immigration quotas if the Americans refrained from mentioning Palestine as a possible destination for refugees.
Lovely, isn't it?
Then look at the Bermuda conference held in 1943. This is where the UK and US decided that any effort to rescue Jews from genocide in Europe was UNNECESSARY and that the pursuit of victory in the war was the best way of stopping the German Nazi government.
Of course, according to some users on this site, maybe only 20,000 died so it isn't a big deal.
You see, genocide happens because people don't take responsibility for ending it. It is too much trouble. A heavy burden. If we ignore it, it will go away. As we have seen since the Holocaust, genocide has continued to happen because of indifference - which is complicity in my opinion. Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur, Sudan.... the list goes on. When will people understand that failure to act IS complicity??
no no, don't take this the wrong way, it wasn't anti european, it was just a thought I had last night while watching that movie with the italian jew who's son and wife end up in the concentration camps and he builds this elaborate 'game' for his son where there are points to be earned for doing certain tasks, usually tasks involved with keeping his son and himself alive.
In the end they shoot him, but the son and wife survive, it was really sad.
Like the war itself, british people have a detatched feeling towards it.
by mobsie666 on Apr 13, 2006 6:37pm
Why? I'm just curious. The United States still has a huge attachment to its history. The aftershocks of the ensuing years still reverberate through American society.
Was it partly a desire to detach itself from the conflicts that had drained the United Kingdom of its resources and manpower?
I hear you. The same thing happens in every other genocide that had occured. People ignore it and don't allow refugees. Then 5-10 years later you start doing something. Well, by then millions have already died so it's a little to late for that.
The best we can do is make sure that nothing like this happens again but we all know that for some "leaders" that asking for that is too much. So I might as well not suggest anything.
If Nazi Germany hadn't been a threat to England and SOME of its neighbors but still continued the Holocaust, the Allies would still have ignored it. The problem (always been always will be) is greed. Nations don't take up arms against the problem until they see that it might threaten them. We see it in Sudan. The genocide of Africans by Africans won't harm the west. It won't pose a threat to Europe or America. That's why EVERYONE ignores it. Same went for Rwanda and the same went for the Balkans before the west realized that the Serbian agression was a threat to the economy. When nations fight genocide, it's not because they care about the victims. It's because somewhere in there they see that it threatens them.
I sometimes think about what that must have been like, I mean, trying to imagine, especially being married now, my wife being taken from me, moved somewhere without a clue as to what is going on, blamed for a variety of things, more than a variety, basically blamed for every ill of society without a shred of proof, because quite honestly there was none, and slowly dehumanized to the point where you are sent to 'shower' to your death.
Of course there is no way to fully comprehend that, ever, without living that. I wish our young people would really look back at this and realize what happened then. I fear some are so detached from it that they don't realize just how horrible it was.
....nearly every European nation did to the Jewish persons within their borders.
Forcing them to wear a mark to indicate they were jewish, barring them from stores, breaking into their stores, and their homes, then taking thier stores, and finally forcing them from their homes and onto trains headed for concentration camp, then after they were gone, stealing their assets, both physical and monetary in banks, knowing most of the Jews would never to return again.'
'Nearly every European nation....'?
That's completely incorrect Jappy - it was just the Nazi regime in Germany that perpetrated the crimes you listed in the ballot subtext, and as for the Swiss, that was the BANKS - and we all know the kind of moral corruption that is endemic in banks all over the world, so it's not fair to blame that on the Swiss people.
Ken, there were a great number of people in all those nations, including the Swiss, who benefited, not just the governments.
Wow, new houses, new businesses, furnished in many cases, as jews were moved out and you could just move RIGHT in.
That wasn't just governments or banks doing that.
Don't know Jappy, I live in Europe, it was all orchestrated by the Nazis only, ask any Jew even and he will tell you it wasn't 'nearly every European nation, the only nation involved with the Holocaust and related injustices against the Jewish diaspora in Europe was Germany.
The only families that were moved in to the dispossessed Jewish family homes were German families.
That is historical fact.
No - but not for the reason you give.
It seems unlikely that they will try to make good
I am heartened by the story of the Danish king during WWII, when the Nazis ordered that all Jews wore the Star of David so as to humiliate them by singling them out.
The king opposed this, but was unable to act in any way that was not putting his country in danger.
His solution, he began to wear the star of David and the citizens of Denmark followed suit, so everyone wore them.
Actually, steelhamster.... that story isn't true. It is just an urban legend.
How? Through Positive affirmation? I hope not.
I believe giving Jews equality before the law would be better.
"nearly every European nation"
I would have to disagree with this stament, the whole of Europe is not to blame for the wrongdoings of the Nazi Regime.
Its a great story though... shame its only a legend
No there shouldn't be any attempt as war destroys assets and therefore the nations in questions would be out of pocket and in any case, were the numbers in the countries persecuting jews any larger than those taking great risks to fight in resistances? Furthermore if a nation was to pay some sort of reperation then it would have to come out of taxpayers money, taxpayers money of generations that weren't even born during world war 2, why should they, if you take this argument then the Germans should still be held accountable for World War I and II and be forced to pay reparations and history has proven that this notion on holding a nation accountable and punishing them accordingly doesn't work, indeed it is for this very reason that the holocaust came to pass.
Incidentely I question some of what fiddlefaddle is saying, for example he says that we ignored the plight of the Jews at Bermuda, yes the holocaust was known about, but we were very unclear as to the extent because reports were vague and contradictory. British intercepts for example reported numbers of a few thousand whilst reports from people who had escaped claimed hundreds of thousands, these were not taken seriouslt whilst intercepts obviously were. The governments thus acted on the best information they had which was only that of maybe tens of thousands of killings at the most and therefore the action they took is understandable. From extracts in Churchill's diaries I believe that the top political echelons of government were largely unaware of the extent of the killing until just a few weeks before D-Day, public condemnation of the holocaust rose dramatically after this period which would seem to confirm it is true and by then the resources available were needed for D-Day and subsequent campaigns, in this respect it is hard for me to condemn the actions taken as how the hell would we know whether more would have died in a longer war with on average less casualties over time or whether a shorter war with comparitively higher casualties. In addition the immigration quotas were mentioned. Again it is hard to justify this on the basis that a) the Allies didn't know there was going to be a holocaust and b) before the war neither did the Germans.
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