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passiveson from bestandworst.com -
comment : Mama Mama please no more husbands, I don't know who my daddy is.... Holiday, Nazareth Mali
they have killed a UN aid worker and injured many. It's really beginning to look like Kosovo. and they are counting on us not butting in on their genocide party. don't worry, they sow what they will eventually reap. they are sowing the seeds of hate which they will pay for the next thousand years. And their whole premise of their policy is dependent upon the arabs never, ever getting the bomb. Stupid thing to do, because sooner or later, everybody on earth will get that technology, and then may Moses have mercy on their children. Voted : Israel must cease forgot to vote. Voted : Israel must cease 
by Truthseeker013 on Thu Jan 15, 09 5:32pm
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It's depressing really,as if the world doesn't have enough problems to contend with without WW3 looming around that black hole. Israel's actions don't even make Israel safer,to the contrary.Demographically Muslims are propagating faster than Jews and Israel has effectively,especially if you include the Lebanon killing spree,is creating MORE hatred and resistance against an Israel which is reducing(in relative terms) in numbers. The whole situation is insane.
by robotthinker on Thu Jan 15, 09 6:32pm
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Voted : Hamas must be totally defeated, while attempting to minimize collateral damage Lets not depict the situation as arbitrary attacks, Israel has defined goals for this operation, goals that are widely accepted by the international community. If the operation stops without achieving these goals, the next round of the clash between Israel and Hamas will definitely come, and will probably have harsher results, as Hamas will be able to restore and increase its military strength. Civilian death is a part of every fighting, especially that of a type that Hamas forces on Israel, and I don't think there's any base to assume that Hamas will abandon its tactics that view the Palestinian population as a human shields, especially if Hamas gets away this time, largely because the "fruits" of those tactics - in the form of international pressure on Israel to cease its just war. And lets get the numbers straight - more than 1000 Palestinians were killed in this round, over half of them are hardly innocent civilians - but armed militants, which are more than legitimate tagets. Regarding the other half - the numbers would have been far smaller if Hamas would have kept its bragings and promises to "stop the Israeli aggression in the fortifications, tunnels and obstacles around Gaza" - but instead it decided that hiding and operating from within Gaza's population would provide him better defense. You must not play to its hand and prove him correct in its cynica and inhuman military tactics. Voted : Israel must cease You're of course entitled to your opinions Yosi. I happen to disagree with you and judging by world sentiment 99 percent of the world disagrees with you as well. I would ask you to refrain from adding bogus choices to my forums though mate. The vote choice you added is little more than your personal opinion disguised as a legit voting option. It's not a choice at all really. I was just perusing your comments page Yosi. You've been gone from this forum for over two years now. Were you in the Israeli military during your absence? Honest question there and not meaning to get you wound up. Jimmy, you should have blocked the option to add other choices, if it's still there. It's like a biased poll with answers that direct the responders to select certain option, I just added a choice that I believe can be more popular. As to its approximated popularity, while you claim that 99 percent of the world won't agree, the only international poll I've seen states that 44% of the Americans support Israel in this conflict while 18% support Hamas' cause. I guess that among Europeans it'll be reversed, but it's hardly the 99-1 ratio you suggested. Regarding my absence, like every Jewish citizen in Israel I'm required by law to serve in the military, and I began (or continued...) that service during my absence, but this isn't the reason for my absence (nor to my temporary return :) Yosi your choice is in my opinion a bogus one. It's not a choice at all in the sence of it being a yes, no or other similar vote choice. It's a statement of your personal view and should have been made in your comments box and not added. Regardless. I now realize about the prevention of bogus choices being added. Reference polls all you like. I personally have not seen any. I have no idea what the actual numbers might be nor do I care really. You're free to believe what you want to. My view is that you're all on your own and you can blame your government for that. I don't know of anyone that supports Israel. Sorry mate I know that's hard to hear but it's my reality. Your temp return seems odd timed then. I just assumed you were off killing innocent women and children like the rest of the Israeli military establishment. :-) If you want to change things vote in a better government. Perhaps then world opinions will be more supportive of Israel. Cheers. I'm not too concerned with the situation in your reality, especially when you show little interest in the actual reality. Everyone is free to believe whatever he wants, as you stated, but I reserve my right to protest and reveal other facts if someone brings inaccurate reports, and other views in case someone suggests interpertations I don't agree with. My reality is fact. I imagine that to you it is a scary reality so you chose to dismiss it. If you have access to the media perhaps you should follow the news. I doubt much you'll see support for Israel. So if I am to understand you, I should disregard the views of people I know and see and take your opinions as the facts? Should I then too disregard the facts from news and humanitarian organisations and believe you over them? Now then what inaccurate reports were brought in here? Are you claiming that the UN is lying and that no Israeli bombardment of their facility took place and that hospital in question is lying too? Take 2 quick facts you got wrong from my comments on this ballot alone: * Hard majority of Americans (which has opinion on this conflict) support Israel's case - and on this poll, which undoubtebly reflects some absolute reality, you specifically said that you don't heard of nor care. * Israel didn't kill 1000 innocent Palestinians - those figures include armed militants, which are legitimate targets, and constitute over half of the reported number of casualities. Regarding the UN facility bombardment - I suggest to wait for the IDF investigation in that issue (like the one I mentioned in other ballots regarding the school bombardment) - that's so I can be sure about the facts. Regarding your interpertation for this assault as knowingly targetting UN personnel, or civilian hospital (is that your view?) - I oppose and offer the explanation of accidents in state of war, and the cynical use of Hamas in the local population, and UN relief forces as human shields. Sorry mate, but once again we disagree completely. Never once did I reference Americans. I'm not American. And wait for the IDF's investigation? That would be like asking the Fox to tell us what he was doing in the Hen house and why it's now empty. All you're doing my friend is presenting your side of the story from an Israeli perspective and declaring your side to be fact. I didn't say that a minimum of 1,000 Palestinian civilians had been killed. The media reported that based on the reports given by Humanitarian relief agencies. Take your argument up with them. Sorry if you're angry at how Israel is being portrayed in all of this, but you can take your case to the court of world opinion. What you're attempting to do is single-handedly sway me and others to your side. I don't know you. I do know that the UN is a reputable organisation and I do know that I will believe the multitude of news agencies over you. As I think you know, most people would. Declare your facts to be accurate and correct over those given by experts all you like, but it appears to be acts of desperation. Regarding the polls - you tried to present the reality as if 99% of the world would disagree with my views. I quoted a poll saying that almost half of the American population do agree with Israel's war - not a good start for proving the 99% conjecture. I'm not referring to reports as facts without hearing the Israeli side - often brought to the Israeli public as IDF investigation results. There had been too many times in which the international media, the UN and of course the Palestinians inflated numbers, and made up facts which latter, after thorough investigation were proven wrong - like the "massacare of Jenin" which started with reports of 500 dead Palestinians and ended up in a famous apology from the BBC (famous at least fof me, I'm sure no one else in the world took notice) - correcting themselves and their numbers to 25 dead Palestinians. But why should we go so far - try to find out what percentage of the 1000 dead Palestinians were armed / belonged to some militant wing - as you probably don't really think that Israel hasn't killed any armed Palestinian etc. Where are those numbers - ask yourself if you're seeing the full picture when you're relying on your sources soley. I checked out the BBC website briefly, and couldn't find such figures (though it's not that hard to extrapulate from the figures they present and infer that about 550 men of the killed were militants). And regarding being angry at how Israel is portrayed - I passed that phase of being angry in the first few months on this website, you can rest assure that I'm totally cool about it, I've been through much worse accusations, so I developed some principles in dealing with "facts" and "interpertations" etc. and ultimately earned at least respect, if not understanding for my points, among the people I debated with. Regarding this round, I feel on solid ground, and believe my arguments can be accepted, or at least understood. I didn't represent that the 99 percent figure was actual. But I do believe it is accurate. I don't put much value on polls. However, I truly do not know of anyone that is supportive of Israel. I believe that to mean the government of Israel and their actions as is the case with me. I am sorry that it's so stark but when you quite literally know of not one person that does, it makes you wonder. Perhaps it's 90 percent. Perhaps it's 95 percent. I don't know. America is a unique animal but even I question 44 percent as you state. Reading through this web forum and it appears that support is non existent or in short supply. It's absolutely normal for you to believe your government over every other source when every other source is so down on you. Can't fault you at all for that. Just don't expect the rest of the world will follow in kind. I harbour no animosity for the people of Israel. In fact it's just the opposite. While I may believe that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, I also don't blame the Palestinian people either. You want Hamas out and many people want a change in policy or government in Israel as well. Obviously you and I are not of like mind on the issue. I must compliment you though for being a gentleman. It's fantastic that you remain focused and polite in all your comments. Voted : Hamas must be totally defeated, while attempting to minimize collateral damage When the Terrorists in the Gaza Strip shoot weapons from the UN building and schools, it is pitiful. The terrorist there has been sending over a thousand missles into Israel in the past 2 years anyway. Regarding polls - I don't know anyone in my immediate sorrounding that thinks that Israel must stop or be stopped, however I'm not surprised that even polls in Israel put the support to Israel's actions between 75 to 95 percent - meaning that I can't dismiss that opposition, even among the Jewish population only. I accept polls as more reliable tools to learn about the feelings of the public thatn counting on the people I actually meet every day. Regarding the figures - I'm not surprised at the 44-18, because normally the polls in the US show a 40-15 ratio in favor of Israel - including polls I quoted in previous comments I made on the website. I do believe that among eueopeans the picture is reversed, or even worse, but ultimately the western world is probably 60-40 or 70-30 against Israel. The 90-95 percent opposition to Israel probably exist only in the muslim world. That leads to the question - where are you from? But staying in the polls outcome - with a ratio of 70-30 - you can hardly dismiss my views as "bogus choice", nor excuse to yourself ignoring the views and its arguments of some insignificant portion of the population. Even if you view my stand as something that represent only an insignificant fraction of the population - let me tell you this - I debated and defended my views against self proclaimed antisemites (you got to admit its rare even among antisemites), which I didn't think represent over 10% of the population (or at least to my best judgement, though I was ready for some sad surprises). Regarding my sources - what amazes me is that the UN and other "reliable" sources don't wait for the Israeli response before determining that for example: "The UN school was targetted" - I mean - they don't even have or try to get access to the soldiers invloved in this incident - how do you expect to get the full picture according to these reports? What's even more rediculous in my view is that the UN expects that when they pass information regarding innocent civilians in a certain UN depot in the middle of some refugee camp to some Israeli coordination colonel - that automatically every Israeli soldier and tank crew will recognize and refrain from hitting the spoken depot. It's war (and one in which the other side seeks these situations cynically), not a surgery - wake up. As I said Israel does all its efforts to minimize collateral damage, but it's not realistic to expect that there will be none. And let me tell you some inside information - Israeli soldiers are ordered to disobey certain commands that goes against human moral. For example, if I was a tank commander and would have known that a certain building houses innocent civilians, and there is no enemy fire from that building or any actual military need fire upon this building - I would disobey command to target and shell it. If I hadn't disobeyed, and IDF investigation would reveal the details I mentioned - I would have been sent to Israeli prison for a long time. Yosi you're obviously an intelligent and gentlemanly bloke, but I remain unconvinced. If I had spoken to or knew of another person who was supportive of Israel's actions I absolutely would say so. I do not. I've no control over what people feel and believe. It must frustrate you to know that poplular opinion is against your country but I cannot help that. It should be an alarm bell for the Israeli government. Well, we've beat the dog, so we can agree to have differing views and leave it at that. I haven't accused you of hiding supportive voices for Israel that you hear in your day to day sorrounding, but don't assume it represent any larger truth thatn it is. The only irrefutable indication for public opinion is polls. As far as my government is concerned, it's more dependent on the international governments' policies, but first and foremost the interests of the people of Israel, and their views, and at least 75% of the Israeli public supports this operation. Like we agreed before, everyone can hold its own views, I can't force you (or anybody) to be convinced, however the main reason for my temporary return is to make Israel's side, and my own views, be heard loud and clear in this website. And what do you know - the results are 9 to 3... On this day of the 17th of Jan.,Palestinians fired five rockets from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel on Sat. morning with one hitting a synagogue in a community in the Merhavim Regional Council. The building was temporarily empty of worshippers due to a break in morning prayers and no one was wounded in the strike although two people were treated for shock. Heavy damage to the structure was reported. Yosi, I think it's fantastic that you're giving the Israeli side of the story. Believe it or not, much of what you wrote has made me think more, so you're successful in that regard. I can't promise I will have a major change in thinking, but I will say that I will be more open. I really do say bravo to you for being so calm and courteous. May have spoken too soon Yosi. Before bed I was reading some articles from The Economist. Being a bit of an insomniac, I just read one that you may wish had never seen the light of day. I'd like to offer up a direct quote from the article. The Economist's article entitled "A War of Words and Images" Back in November, few outside the region noticed when Israel suddenly blocked foreign reporters’ access to the crowded Strip. But the information prong of Israel’s Gaza offensive involves far more than the tight control of press access. Israel has fully utilised its expertise at hasbara, a Hebrew word meaning literally “explanation”, but referring more broadly to image promotion. Platoons of on-message spokesmen are available to foreign reporters in Israel at all hours of the night and day. Israel’s army has also launched a website featuring selected videos that is dedicated, it says, to documenting the “humane action and operational success” of Israeli forces. Israel’s foreign ministry, assisted by scores of pro-Israel groups worldwide, has enlisted thousands of volunteers, supplying them with regularly updated talking points to nudge editors, journalists and commentators to see the news from Israel’s perspective. The article in the Economist also covers this aspect of our rigerous debate. Again, a direct quote from the article. Yet wider support among the American public for Israel in this conflict appears to be less robust than usual. A Rasmussen poll taken on December 31st showed that while 44% of Americans were still for Israel, 41% were against it, a relatively high figure. And that was before the bloody attack on a UN school and other such incidents. Not sure if we're permitted to post links here, but you can do a web search to find it. I can also send it to you by private. Perhaps you're one of those volunteers mate? (-: I found and read the article - and also the actual poll - google "Rasmussen Americans Closely Divided Over Israel’s Gaza Attacks" (without quotes). Another figure from that poll: "Fifty-five percent (55%) of adults, however, believe the Palestinians are to blame for the current situation in Gaza, while 13% point the finger at the Israelis." You may find surprises in that poll, as there are many results, and I haven't bothered to go through them, but I believe this is the big picture (haven't found any mention for the 18% support for Hamas, though). As the Israeli Hasbara is concerned - I'll not deny it (though it's new to me that foreign reporters couldn't enter Gaza since November), but I don't think that the fact that it was so organized is a big deal, and it does show that the Israeli government care about international public opinion. Regarding the media reports and Israel's strict policy, I'll say that I don't fully understand it, but I can say that after the extreme opennesss to the media in the 2006 lebanon war, in which Israeli military plans were frequently reported to the media, allowing Hezbollah to prepare themselves, the IDF has learned it, and imposed more tight censorship on the media. I don't know if we got to the right level of cooperation / censorship with the media. Another possible reason is the risk that foreign media crews will be hit accidently by Israeli fire (as sometimes happen during wars). What other things that I haven't related to, bother you? And regarding being a volunteer - you're not the first person who thought about it and wondered about me in this site, that's why I emphasized that not my absence, nor my return :) to this site is connected to my military service. The Israeli media does report on the international efforts of both official Israel, and "freelance supporters" of Israel to present Israel's case in the international media and the web. So I dropped by to check what's going on in "my website"... Mate, search a town called Theresianstadt. You might find the similarities alarming. Then the Nazis tried to convince the outside world that Theresianstadt was not a concentration camp, but was a paradise ghetto. The Nazis would not let any outsiders in to look at it. They prevented the Red Cross and any outsiders. Finally they decided they would let the Red Cross in. First however, they prettied up the place and forced all of the internees to pretend all was right as rain. The Red Cross came and went and believed that all was fine in Theresianstadt. It was far from it. All I'm saying here mate is that Israel is doing all of the explaining, wants to give all the facts and do all the explaining and expect the world will just accept it. We're not. On the poll. You want to play word games to get the responses you want. Go right on. I told you I know little of polls. The Economist is quite reputable and if they put the poll results from the December the 31st poll as 44% of Americans were still for Israel while 41% were against it, that's proof enough for me. Don't much like how you sing the praises of polls when you want to portray them as being in your favor and then dismiss them when they prove otherwise. I'll get more of that article now. Regarding the poll - something I should have noticed in your first refernece to it, and it acught my eye the second time - the poll doesn't say 41% of the American public is against Israel it says "Forty-four percent (44%) say Israel should have taken military action against the Palestinians, but 41% say it should have tried to find a diplomatic solution to the problems there". There was no "against Israel" choice in that particular poll question, and I don't think that "believe that Israel should have tried diplomatic solution" is the same as "against Israel". I never dismissed that poll, I just referenced you to other figures in that poll, before I realized that you gave a twist to that poll (And I'm not saying intentionally). And I don't think I used this poll as ultimate justification for Israel's actions, if you recall we started this debate not with your "I think it's fantastic that you're giving the Israeli side of the story" but with "I happen to disagree with you and judging by world sentiment 99 percent of the world disagrees with you as well. I would ask you to refrain from adding bogus choices to my forums though mate" - as if Israel's view is some extreme "crazy" minority view, which doesn't stand in the world's public opinion tests (which by itself doesn't make it invalid or bogus in any way). The polls goes to show you that this issue isn't black and white for one side over the other, and you can't claim that the entire western world thinks the way you and your sorrounding thinks. Regarding Theresianstadt, you began to inspect the situation seriousely - reading articles, polls and basing on facts, using logic, rather than the sentiment you get from your sorrounding. Don't regress - don't use your imagination to depict things the way you want (?) to see them. Even the article you mentioned states that the lack of foreing western media in Gaza probably backfired on Israel, as the Arab media that reported inside Gaza was probably more biased against Israel, than the international media that was prevented from entering there. The numbers you quoted, and the stories you brought are taken from Palestinian reports, so hiding the truth is not the issue here. I already wrote my stand regarding the Palestinian reports, and I don't think the reality is more grim than what we already heard from the Palestinian side - if anything, the reality is better (for Israel's case at least) than what was portrayed. I recall my statement that you twisted the poll results - it's the economist that did the twist (I've taken the rasmussen site itself as source - google what I've written earlier.) I don't know (or have strngth to analyze right now :) what it says about the economist, so I'll leave it for now. Yosi I could not care any less for polls than I've already indicated. I do find you twist them though, so best left to the experts to interpret them. I've seen polls showing strong support for Israel and ones showing a huge drop. You keep refrencing America and I could not care less. The world is not America mate. Come to Europe if you want. Be prepared. All that said my friend, you do talk in circles and you do try to convolte the issues. If you are a Propogandist, you're failing. You've now made me more resolved than ever to stick to what I believe to be right and wrong. Your points on my brining up Theresianstadt just tell me that a nerve has been struck. And mate, travel outside Israle because more people than you realize are saying the Israeli government is acting like the government of Nazi Germany. Facts are that the similarities between what they did in Theresianstadt and what your government is attempting to do with Gaza, are absolutely real. Neglected to mention. I think we've beat the dog on this one and I for one am all talked out. Quit the propoganda business Yosi. You're terrible at it. (-: Regarding polls - can you give an example to a twist I gave them? The poll I referenced (which may have been a different poll) indicated that about half of the Americans supports Israel, while only one fifth support Hamas. Your poll confirmed the support for Israel's rate, and provided no data regarding support for Hamas. Later I tried to estimate the support Israel gets from the western world (mainly US, EU), which the US represents about 40% of its population - which by itself provide 20% support for Israel in the western world. Even if it's 20-80 against Israel in the rest of the western world, Israel still gets over 30% support in the western world. This figure should make you uncomfortable in basing what you believe is the international opinion, on the voices you hear from people in your immediate sorrounding. I emphasize this point, as you seem to assume that if 95% of the international opinion is against something - than it must be wrong, and there's no point debating over it. It's not the situation - not regarding the figure, nor the debate worthiness in these situations. Regarding your attempt to discourage me from keeping presenting my POV - you have a right to remain unconvinced, and believe whatever you want, but I still reserve my right to present the things as I see them. Your lack of understanding, or worse, your insults won't make me pass on that right. You are not the first in this site, who came up with the idea that I'm propagandist, and tried to throw to my face the fact that he remains unconvinced, as if it by itself contradicts my points, and is a "winning card" in the debate. And there you are. I'm not discouraging you from presenting your POV. Not at all. Why would you say that mate? Firt off you introduced polls, not me. I merely gave a wild number based upon what is my reality. Again I am sorry if that reality upsets you but I didn't create it. I had mistaken you for a level-headed lad that could debate with civility and maturity. Obviously you're angry that you're words did not have the effect you set about to have. Don't play a victim here for it's a bit childish. You're absolutely free to present any view you wish to and within your rights to argue any point you wish. My right is to disagree if that's my conclusion. As for the Propogandist thing, what do you expect? Based upon your behaviour and words what conclusion do you expect people to come to? There you go. We're right as rain now. Cheers. This figure should make you uncomfortable in basing what you believe is the international opinion. Imp. How dare you twist things once again. Look mate, fact is, Israel is detested. Not my problem and not my doing. If you want to believe some bogus polls, that's typical of your ilk, isn't it? I could not care less what polls show. I think reading the comments on this site and perusing the votes tell me that opinion on here is much what I encounter when the topic is brought up. Point is mate, your country is only brought up in a negative light. Never have heard anything positive about it. It's also not brought up all that often. Fact is, most of us couldn't care any less. Now go spread your lies elsewhere. You're offensive. "I'm not discouraging you from presenting your POV. Not at all. Why would you say that mate?" "Quit the propoganda business Yosi. You're terrible at it. " As for the polls - I just don't understand you, mate. What was your point saying 99% of the world opposes Israel - which prompted my bringing up of poll results. You expressed hope that the mounting international public opinion will cause my government to change its policies, but it turns more and more that you're not refering to actual international public opinion, but to your opinion, which is backed unanimousely by your immediate sorrounding. Reflecting from that on the global opinion - is, as you stated - your reality, and not something my government should take for more than it is. Regarding the quote of myself you brought - I noticed I missed "on" between "...basing what..." - other than that - how exactly have I twisted your words? "Now go spread your lies elsewhere. You're offensive." I'll say my truth in this site. I thought we've already agreed on that. Pfft. You wouldn't know the truth if you slept with it. You certainly had me fooled Yosi. I've come to find you a liar. It's a shame this is the best your nation can muster. If you want to continue the debate, which has turned to issues and level I wish it hadn't - give an example for a lie of mine.
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