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COMMENTS:
Oh, I can't wait for the replies on this one! Watch the old double talk come out.
I will first point out that imposing the death penalty was nearly impossible because a unanimous decision would have to be reached by the Sanhedrin which was comprised of 71 people.
"eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread"
I always thought that was called Passover.
For these items a lot of people would like the death penalty imposed today.
- committing incest
- committing bestiality
- raping someone
If the Bible is God's Word and He commands this punishment how can anyone justify the arrogance of modifying the Holy instructions.
Either God is real and His Word goes or He's not and His Word is irrelevant.
Picking and choosing what to apply makes an absolute mockery of Scripture.
The ballot choice about reform speaks volumes about the validity of scripture. The revisionist attitude to the Word of God proves the complete and utter worthlessness of the Bible as a document based in reality.
I implore any faithful Jew or Christian to defend their inaction.
"being non-Jewish"
There is no death penalty for this.
"committing perjury"
Yes, when it is a death penalty case only. If the penalty for lying in a death penalty case is death, it makes it a lot less likely that you will testify falsely. If we did this now, a lot less innocent people would be on death row.
"converting anyone from Judaism"
"teaching another religion"
At a time when the survival of the Israelites was a stake.
"having sex before marriage"
I believe you are taking this out of context. In fact, I don't think this is correct, a man would have to marry this woman instead. Please provide the verse.
- eating rare meat
- being a prostitute
- being stubborn and rebellious
- manufacturing anointing oil
- gluttony and excessive drinking
- ignoring a priest
- being a medium
- practising magic
Please provide the verse(s) for each of these.
"not being circumcised"
Yes, as a covenant requirement. Also, at the time when survival of the Israelites was at risk. You could always leave.
"sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating"
Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Try it some time.
Listing something as a death penalty offense didn't mean it was carried out as explained above. The purpose was often to prevent people from doing these things because they knew the penalty was severe.
Patch... Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (as listed in the Torah) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (this is found in the Torah) until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law (See above), you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I've answered your question as to how and when the death penalty might be carried out. You have to determine whether someone is guilty or not, don't you? Or do you just wantonly kill people because they are accused of something. The concept of the Sanhedrin was also part of the law.
"converting anyone from Judaism"
"teaching another religion"
Provide the verses. These I believe these are once again being completely taken out of context.
Now respond with the verses from the Bible that you got these from.
I'm hardly a devout anything, but it's possible that christians and jews have evolved beyond their relatively savage and repressive origins and have (mostly) adopted to the modern world.
Unlike some major world religions we know, these two are no longer living in the times of holy wars and genocide in the name of their god.
"being non-Jewish"
There is no death penalty for this.
Yes there is. Exodus 22:20
"having sex before marriage"
I believe you are taking this out of context. In fact, I don't think this is correct, a man would have to marry this woman instead. Please provide the verse. Deuteronomy 22:13-21. Only applies to women.
- eating rare meat leviticus 17:10
- being a prostitute Leviticus 21:9 for daughters of the priesthood.
- being stubborn and rebellious Deuteronomy 21:18-21
- manufacturing anointing oil Exodus 30:33
- gluttony and excessive drinking Deuteronomy 21:20
- ignoring a priest Deuteronomy 17:12
- being a medium Leviticus 20:27
- practising magic Exodus 22:18
"converting anyone from Judaism" and teaching another religion" Deuteronomy 13:1-10
There are specifics that I didn't mention but they do not change the sentence of death.
"Or do you just wantonly kill people because they are accused of something."
No you have a trial and then stone them for adultery, right?
Face it, God's Word is abused and misused by those who strive to prove its validity.
It stinks.
"I'm hardly a devout anything, but it's possible that christians and jews have evolved beyond their relatively savage and repressive origins and have (mostly) adopted to the modern world"
A modern world that is suffering due to the very divisions that this pathetic adherence to ancient mythology is causing.
If it has "evolved" enough to ignore some of the very words of God how on Earth can it maintain its integrity?
"Unlike some major world religions we know, these two are no longer living in the times of holy wars and genocide in the name of their god."
Your unecessary swipe at Islam brings to light your rampant hypocrasy once more, Herzog.
Why is it terrorism to fight for your religion but liberation to fight for oil and resources?
The only thing not up on that list is homosexuality, stange how they are the only ones ACTUALLY being persecuted by religion!!!!!!!!!!!
A double standard if ever I saw one!!!!!
Persecuted in what way minni?
No gay marriage? Seperation of church and state, remember? That's the law of the land *smiles*
But you are right about the rest of the list.
Most religions change over time to adapt to where we are in human culture and what is presently acceptable. Islam however has not done so because many of the nations whose governments are heavily influenced by Islam mislead thier followers with poor teachings that are not at all in the way the Koran means them, and not at all in a spiritual manner. More so they teach this way because to keep people uneducated in such a way allows the leadership to stir up 'the masses' in anger at the west, or jews, or (insert 'new satan') here, so that the attention is taken off of the corruption of the government and put upon something else.
And before the obvious leftist comment, the United States has seperation of church and state, so your comment is already moot, nice try though.
"Your unecessary swipe at Islam brings to light your rampant hypocrasy once more, Herzog.
Why is it terrorism to fight for your religion but liberation to fight for oil and resources?"
--
To fight for one's religion? Is that what you want to call that when muslims are killing other muslims? That is a 'freedome fighter' to you, widehead, is that 'fighting for one's religion' when you kill others, innocents I might add, who are of the same religious beliefs as you?
When is the last time a Christian strapped a bomb to himself and walked into a crowded market blowing himself and other innocent people up?
When is the last time a Jew loaded a car with explosives and drove it into a schoolbus killing innocent children?
Israel and the USA are at least attempting to fight in such a way to avoid casualties as much as they can, and it doesn't always work, at least they can point to the attempt, where as Hezbollah is just firing rockets at random, and the foreign insurgency in Iraq is killing anyone they can to destabilize the infrastructure and oil industry to try to incite civil war.
Your reasoning is the faulty reasoning here. You grasp at straws trying to coerelate the insanity of Islam extremism by comparing it with mainstream Christianity or Judaism and the comparisons are just not there.
Also, if you really wanted to get technical about it, if you took a list like the one you included in this poll from Muslim teachings:
No sex outside of marriage
No adultery
No eating of pork
No relationships with infidels
No drinking alcohol
No reading the teachings of other religions
etc, etc, you will find that those who do any of the above in many Islamic states in present day will be killed for doing so. I'd say that's a major difference there also.
Quit comparing apples to oranges.
Implementation of the death penalty required:
1. Two witnesses
2. They would have to testify that they had not only witnessed the act that the criminal has been charged with, but that they had warned him beforehand that if he carried out the act he would be executed.
3. These witnesses faced the death penalty themselves if the testified falsely.
4. This would imply that he had accepted the warning and stated his willingness to commit the act despite his awareness of its consequences.
5. The criminal's own confession was not accepted as evidence.
6. Circumstantial evidence is not permitted.
How often do you think the death penalty was imposed? Rarely, if ever.
"Being non-Jewish"
There is no death penalty for this. (Yes there is). Exodus 22:20
Exodus 22:20 And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. ???
"Having sex before marriage"
I believe you are taking this out of context. In fact, I do not think this is correct; a man would have to marry this woman instead. Please provide the verse. Deuteronomy 22:13-21. Only applies to women.
This is a little more complex than you suggest. This section details a whole procedure regarding settling the matter of a woman’s virginity. It also proscribes harsh punishment for the man if he is incorrect in his assertion that she was not a virgin. It also is not an automatic death penalty as taking a bride was not the same then as it is now. Marriages were arranged and the man wishing to marry a woman would have to pay the woman’s father. This section was meant to encourage (rather strongly) that a father raise a chaste daughter.
- eating rare meat Leviticus 17:10
First, let me address the issue of blood. Blood represents the life force of any animal (human or otherwise). To partake of this is a grievous sin. Blood was what was offered as a sacrifice at the alter. This relates to the issue of what is kosher. Kosher meat must have ALL of the blood drained off. The verse also reads:
And any man of the House of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My attention upon the soul who eats the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people.
Cut him off does not necessarily means death. It means separation from his family, from the Israelites.
- being a prostitute Leviticus 21:9 for daughters of the priesthood.
This is also a little more complicated. This is not just “priests”, but rather Kohanim. Kohanim were the only ones permitted to perform the highest priestly duties. A sin in their family would be more grievous or significant than in others. This section does not refer to being a prostitute, but rather a married daughter of a Kohanim who committed adultery.
- being stubborn and rebellious Deuteronomy 21:18-21
This is also a little more complex. Both mother and father would have to agree. The elders of the community would have to be the ones to make any decision. The family could only bring this to the attention of the elders. The son would have to be warned in presence of at least three people. If he continued, he would then be flogged first (escalating series of punishments). First understand that that he would have to steal money from his father, consume at one meal a weight of well more than a pound of meat, and drink an amount of wine of similar excess. In practice, the parents would have been exemplary in the matter of not eating or drinking to excess or they would have no grounds for bringing charges. At a time when people lived hand to mouth, having a glutton and drunkard could affect the survival of the family. The concern here is that eventually the son will squander his father’s money, seek what he has become accustomed to and not find it. Then he will stand at crossroads and rob people, likely killing them and incurring the death penalty. The purpose was to prevent this from happening. It is not as easy as just executing someone.
- manufacturing anointing oil Exodus 30:33
This refers to a specific form of anointing used in the temple. It refers ONLY to manufacture and use of it for other purposes.
- Gluttony and excessive drinking Deuteronomy 21:20
I addressed this earlier.
- ignoring a priest Deuteronomy 17:12
You are ignoring all the other verses that come before this. The priests at that time served as sort of a supreme court. The person would have to utterly disregard or make a mockery of the priests and the law, say in a situation such as homicide. This would be a threat to social order, etc.
- being a medium Leviticus 20:27
There must be witnesses and a warning not to commit the sin must happen. If the person acting willfully but without warning, they would have to bring a sin-offering.
Practicing magic Exodus 22:18
Actually, this refers to bestiality.
Perhaps you mean verse 17. The verse means you shall not tolerate a sorceress. Literally speaking “you shall not let a sorceress to live”. The idea was to not provide her with a livelihood, to drive her out of the community if she continued.
"Converting anyone from Judaism" and teaching another religion" Deuteronomy 13:1-10
This refers to a person among the Israelite community who attempts to convince large numbers of people follow another religion while using deception and lies. Or by attempting to add or subtract from the law (as specified in the Torah).
You are talking in circles.
Either the Bible is the Word of God and you follow it verbatim or it's not and we forget the whole deal. You cannot have it both ways.
And jappy - perhaps muslims take the view of a deity more seriously. Hence their devotion to literal teachings and ancient punishments.
And my point about Herzogs swipe at Islam was simply to point out that it's a bit rich to assume the position that Christianity and Judaism have "evolved" when both religions are involved in conflicts that show a blatant disregard for human life.
You may well think it's fine to invade another a country in order secure natural resources but intelligent, humane and downright normal people think its nothing short of terrorism.
Next time a civilian ANYWHERE dies as a result of the clash of armed forces I hope you feel thoroughly ashamed of the position you are taking now: The West has the right to dominate every Muslim nation about sums it up.
I pity the poor people who may well fall under a hail of your misplaced bullets.
Shame on you and shame on all the US armed forces in Iraq.
You have a right to your opinion, widehead, as misplaced as it may be. Just be sure to thank a soldier the next time you see one for your freedom, be he American or British. They give you the right to speak your mind without having a bullet be the last thing to go thru your head.
You may well think it's fine to invade another a country in order secure natural resources but intelligent, humane and downright normal people think its nothing short of terrorism.
-----
widehead, can you show me the press release where it states that we are in Iraq to secure their national resources, I just searched around and other than on tin foil hat conspiracy websites, I just can't seem to find anything that supports your statement anywhere. Just a reputable news release, that's all I'm wondering, thank you.
A modern world that is suffering due to the very divisions that this pathetic adherence to ancient mythology is causing.
So this is a religious war we are in is it? Because I thought the left had been vehemently denying that for years.
"If it has "evolved" enough to ignore some of the very words of God how on Earth can it maintain its integrity?"
I don't believe the bible is the word of god, so I have no opinion. But you should ask yourself, which is more important: staying the course, or not killing people for trivial 'crimes'? Personally I'm happy that christians and jews are no longer crusaders and butchers, aren't you?
"Your unecessary swipe at Islam brings to light your rampant hypocrasy once more, Herzog.
Why is it terrorism to fight for your religion but liberation to fight for oil and resources?"
First off, they aren't fighting for their religion. Prior to 911 (and after for that matter) islam was the fastest growing world religion. How exactly are they defending their religion against the christians? Oh I know, the US had troops in saudi arabia (at their request) and the filthy je. . sorry, Israelis occupied what, .05% of formerely muslim land? Yeah, they're really defending their religion. In the same way that mike tyson could 'defend' himself against an 80 year old quadrapalegic woman by sucker punching her.
And as for the the old 'we're stealing their oil' tirade, we're not, this has been shown again and again. If we wanted oil we'd have gone to saudi arabia (they have considerably more than Iraq) or we would have simply lifted the sanctions that the US alone was upholding against Iraq and buy their oil for considerably less than the cost of a war (aren't liberals going on and on about how costly this war is? Put two and two together).
Think long term, not short term, Herzog.
By dismantling the infrastructure of Iraq and rebuilding it in their image the US hope to secure the big contracts for their corporations to start reaping the benefits of plundering another nation.
If you believe that the West altruistically liberated an oppressed nation or (even worse) struck pre-emptively at a fictional threat you are badly mistaken.
Bush, Blair et al are nothing more than terrorist leaders with the blood of thousewands of innocents on their hands.
Jappy covert aims are rarely disclosed in the press. I just weighed up the evidence supplied by many, many commentators, news reports and came to a conclusion shared by anyone who is blinded by some kind of warped patriotism that seems to rationalise and forget that EVERY SINGLE REASON FOR INVADING IRAQ WAS A LIE. (Saddam a threat? Lie. WMDs? Lie. Biological and chemical weapons? Lie. Nuclear weapons programs? Lie. Liberation of the Iraqi people? Lie.)
So why did we waste the lives of so many Iraqis?
Give me one good reason - just one, that isn't based on the lies of the Bush administration.
Sorry Herzog but when you said that Islam existed in a time of "holy wars and genocide in the name of their god" I thought you were referring to religion.
My mistake.
And when I said that religion was was causing suffering YOU made the jump to conclude that the current conflict was a religious one. I said it was for resources.
However, religious divisions truly are the source of many, many conflicts. Take away religion and we wouldn't HAVE an issue with Israel (for example) because ISRAEL WOULD NOT EXIST!
Imagine: no Israel, no Balkans conflict, no genocide in Sudan, no holocaust, no suicide bombers (what would motivate them?) and that's just recent issues!
I am not saying that religion is the cause of ALL disputes, wars and conflicts but it surely is a major factor in many.
All based on a fiction!
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