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COMMENTS:
and your point is what? It isn't like the KKK in some form wouldn't have existed if there were no Christian religion.
Voted : No
The KKK are inspired by hate and bigotry. Do you think the bible teaches this?
Voted : No
Well, I personally don't think it is, however there is a common cultural belief or myth among many that this is true, and we often hear followers of other faiths who like to point this out as "fact". So I was curious to see what other people (here) believe.
But I'm also expecting certain people here to point out some obscure Bible verses to back-up their "Yes" vote. They are probably searching right now.
Voted : Yes
In precisely the same way that the ideologies of Al Quaeda and Hezbollah are based upon the teachings of Islam.
^Oh my! Lucky thing the KKK isn't firing rockets at others, or flying planes into tall buildings, or strapping on explosives to evicerate themselves and others in marketplaces. All while screaming "Jesus saves!, Jesus saves!, Jesus Saves! Perhaps they should convert to a more dangerous cult to get more attention.
Voted : Yes
^good point marge... surely not based on the true teachings, but their interpretation... and christianity is definitely their justification!
by MO_ on Tue Aug 22, 06 3:59pm
[+]
Voted : No
If it did, I have no doubt that the Klansboys would be all too happy to preach their message in churches, without those lovely pointy hoods on.
"surely not based on the true teachings, but their interpretation" by MO_ on Tue Aug 22, 06 3:59pm
Interesting opinion MO. Can you substantiate it with evidence that caused you to "surely" formulate it.
Voted : No
Technically not.
The KKK is part of a much broader problem called the "Christian Identity" Movement. This welds together all the best bits of anti-semitism, racism, homophobia and rampant fundamentalist Christianity.
Their strict interpretation of the Bible backs up their beliefs in the evils of homosexuality and the complete rejection of any other religions.
Once someone has arbitrarily decided they are God's chosen people they can more or less use the Bible to justify any action - no matter how distasteful.
The Christian Identity Movement doesn't start from Bible - it's starts from the premise that "white anglo-saxons" are God's people and they go on from there.
So are their ideologies BASED on the bible? No but they use the Bible as a form of divinely inspired authority and justification for their evil.
I think they would exist religeon aside.What's intersting is that they are comprized of the same types of elements that exists in every ethnic group,ethnically loyal to an extreme.They are not alone by far,they are just cited the most often.
Goodness, Jinn: Such passion! My point was that religious teachings of Islam and Christianity are perverted by extremists to justify their views. Certainly the Islamic extremists in the present day are more active and violent than Christians. This wasn't true in the past history of Christianity where the Bible was used to justify all manner of violence, including but not limited to burning alive, blinding, maiming, drowning, flaying, tearing of flesh, and so on. This not to mention the countless wars fueled by narrow and erroneous views of scripture. Maybe Christianity has grown, matured. Maybe not. But all religions are bent by extremists. Please relax, we are just having a discussion here. I'm not going to attack you in Jesus name.
Voted : No
KKK is not a religious movement,although they do often use Christian symbols and doctrine inorder to attract new followers.The KKK came into being with the sole purpose of harrasing and killing newly freed slaves and their descendants.If Christianity did not exist the KKK still would they are a product of the fallen Cofederate state of America.
I would have to guess no. But they certainly used many props familiar to Christians based on the religion of the people that they were trying to recruit.
the KKK was a money-making endeavor. In the book Freakonomics the author proves it.
My oh my Margaret, what makes you think I'm not relaxed? A serious ballot on religion is my favorite topic. I'm in my element here. Are you overly judgemental Margaret, or was that just a defensive and emotional jab at me out of malice, because I was sardonic about your comment.
"My point was that religious teachings of Islam and Christianity are perverted by extremists to justify their views" by margaret123 on Tue Aug 22, 06 6:33pm
Really Margaret, Have you read the Quran? How do you know the so-called Islamic extremists are perverting its teachings? How do you know that Quran is not replete with extremist teachings itself? Unless you have read the Quran, you wouldn't know. I have not met a true Muslim that has ever told me that the terrorists are perverting the teachings of Quran.
Jinn, the warlike sayings of the Quran are matched in vehemence by the Old Testament - a key part of the Christian Bible as well as being Judaic scripture.
Is this ballot an attack on all Abrahamic religions or just you trying to bait people in order for you to have yet another swipe at Islam?
Your question has been answered: The KK use the Bible to justify their beliefs not act as a basis for them. Let'move on.
Tsk tsk Widehead, your arrogance shines through as it does in the name you chose to call yourself. Its common for arrogant people to become bullys when they find themselves dicussing a topic to which they feel inferior.
What?
Your ballot question has been addressed has it not?
Are you trying to defend the KKK in the light of radical Islamic Fundamentalism?
What's your point?
It seems to me that your knowledge on the relationship between the KKK, the Christian Identity Movement and the Bible is inferior here....
....not arrogance just plain for all to see.
"Jinn, the warlike sayings of the Quran are matched in vehemence by the Old Testament - a key part of the Christian Bible as well as being Judaic scripture." by wideheadofknowledge on Tue Aug 22, 06 7:08pm
I agree Widehead. The Bible and the Torah do recount terrible acts of violence committed by Moses and Joshua, and most religions have violence in their annals. And I am not a religious person and don't support any one of them. I reject them all. Even if those other religions don't call for killing the disbelievers as Islam does, they are all the cause of division and so much bloodshed among humankind. However, we musn't tolerate violence in one religion because other religions also have violent histories. Two wrongs don't make a right and of course tu quoque as an argument has no validity. But there is a major difference between the Quran and those other religious doctrines, one that would be obviously apparent to those that have studied them. Old recorded tales like those in the Old Testament are not instructions or teachings, they are simply tales and narratives of ancient Biblical characters. In contrast to this, the Quran is a book of rules and guidelines for Muslims to follow. Rules on how to live, eat, trade, marriage, divorce, property, when to worship, who your friends should be and shouldn't be, keeping and treatment of slaves, when to beat your wife, fighting, warring, when and when not to go to war, when and who to kill, terrorizing, how to treat Jews and Christians (the ones not to make friends with)...and on and on. This is the trouble with the non-Muslim apologists. They tend to view Islam as they view their own doctrines, when they don't have a clue.
The other religions are not the standard. To see the truth we need to compare the teachings of these religions to the concepts of modern humanity, equality and oneness. And of course we aren't in competition with each other! Should religionists be struggling at any cost to win, and to win what? Winning to establish who is better at killing and barbarity? There is absolutely nothing to win in that logic. It is all a total loss. That is pure backward thinking and a race to complete failure. The real winner are the ones who get out of this mad race the fastest. We can't accept those brutal and horrific attacks that humanity has witnessed and continues to witness daily, by a cult that has declared a global holy war on its infidel enemy. We can't be so stupid and naive to say "well the old testament has violence in its scripture, so we can accept the terrorsists". What kind of reasoning is that? Because we believe their is violence in other religions this should somhow mitigate the acts of Islamic terrorsists and their beheadings, suicide attacks, hijackings and slaughter of thousands of innocent humans? That is absurd! Wake up Widehead. In our modern world there is no religion anything like Islam. Where is the good in Islam for modern humanity? Islam's legacy to the world is the suicide bomber, video recordered beheadings and mass-murder of infidels. The Quran is replete with hate and direct instructions for killing and fighting others. Muslims are quite capable to kill themselves for their god and there are an unlimited number of them willing to do it. They have no problem killing their own too.
Where are all the Christian suicide bombers Widehead? Where are the Catholic people that are bombing and burning mosques to the ground? Where are all the Jews boarding planes with boxcutter knives? When was the last time you heard of an agnostic or atheist terrorist group planting explosives at a discotech or on a subway train, just so they could slaughter as many innocent people as possible who wern't following their nonbeliefs? Widehead, when you travel overseas, what religion comes to your mind when you ponder the thought of terrorism? Widehead their is no misinterpretaion of Quran, no taking out of context, no twisting of verses. The Quran is an extremist doctrine of instruction created by a medieval terrorist. Try reading the Quran before you comment further. By the way, there are not instructions in the Bible for Christians to commit killing and massmurder of non-Christians, which is why so-called fundamentilist Klansmen are not terrorising the world. If many really are serious Christians, which I strongly doubt, then I assume even Klansmen know the ten commandments, fear them and respect them. Read the Quran and get your widehead wider.
Your ballot question has been addressed has it not? Are you trying to defend the KKK in the light of radical Islamic Fundamentalism?
What's your point?
What conern is it to you. Are you the ballot master? Save your domination and control arrogance for your wife and kids. I don't need to hear it.
And by the way, the KKK ideologies are based on hate teaching, just like Islam is and Nazism was. I have no use for any of them. I am against hate and they are doctrines of hate. You aren't a defender of Islam I hope.
When Christians have the right motivation and (equally importantly) the finances they wiilingly commit acts of terrorism and atrocities.
The IRA and Milosevic's cleansing of the Balkans are two recent examples.
The key to understanding this is to realise the political and(occasionally) religious motivations for violence.
In politically stable areas Muslims tend not to susceptible to the kind of brainwashing that goes on elsewhere. You seem to take the rules, regulations , situations, emotions, tensions and priorities that govern YOUR life and try to apply them to people and regions that simply cannot compare.
Is the Quran evil? No more than the Old Testament.
Are the socio-ecomomic and geo-political factors the same in the West as they are in predominantly Mulims regions like the Middle East? No they are not and so the comparison is an unfair one.
When was the last time a Muslim in your neighbourhood strapped explosives round their torso and blew themselves up in a marketplace? Never, right - so the problem is not with Islam. It's with the people who funnel huge sums of money into brainwashing, recruiting, training and arming poor susceptible souls who have absolutely no idea that what they are doing is wrong.
"By the way, there are not instructions in the Bible for Christians to commit killing and massmurder of non-Christians"
deuteronomy 18:22
exodus 22:20
Teaching another religion and worshipping any other God are capital crimes according to God.
I don't know what's more laughable: Jews and Christians having no respect for God (they ignore His laws) or the Muslims who are so convinced that a fictional deity is real they are prepared to kill and be killed in His name.
Make no mistake - I detest religion in all it's forms.
Seems a shame that you focus all your hate on Islam. Only Fundamentalists and terrorists deserve your hate - not all Muslims and certainly not a old book of myths and stories.
Yes, Widehead. God is the one that hands out the punishment. I believe its called "judgement day".
Can you find any others?
Besides Widehead, I stated that the Bible does not call for Christians to deliberately kill the non-Christians. Read my statement again. We don't see Christians following any such command do we.
And what does it matter anyway. The Bible is a load of nonsense. You are not going to convince me of anything by showing me its nonsense. You should be more concerned with which religion is the real threat to humanity? You aren't Islamic are you?
islam is not a threat to humanity any more than Christianity is.
However fundamentalist Christians and fundemantalist Muslims are a threat to everyone.
As an atheist I pity anyone who is too much of a coward to make it through life without the emotional crutch of a loving God and a reward in the afterlife BUT I don't particularly care what they believe as long as they don't foist their beliefs on me or use their beliefs to justify amoral behaviour or actions.
I think that the difference between our viewpoints is that you do not distinguish the fundamentalist from the religion itself. I do.
Widehead, the problem with many people in society like yourself is that when is comes to religion you missuse the term fundamentalism to describe avid followers of Christianity as being bad, when in fact they are just being good faithful Christians.
In Christianity the more one is faithful to their doctrine the more passive and peacful they are. Examples of the true fundamentalists in Christianity are the Mennonites, Hutterites, Amish and the Jehovah Witnesses. The more closely a Christian adheres to his doctrine to more peaceful they are. In fact the followers of those faiths I mentioned above refuse to fight in any war or conflict. In contrast to this the truest a Muslim is to his faith, the more dangerous and militant they become. The Taliban, Khomeini and people like bin laden are the true Muslims. There is nothing that they do that their loved prophet Muhammad did not do.
I don't particularly care what they believe as long as they don't foist their beliefs on me or use their beliefs to justify amoral behaviour or actions.
When it comes to religion Atheists do not "believe". Beliefs are for fools. Atheists know there is no god, and certainly not the ones written about by ignorant and unscienced men of the Middle Ages.
Based on? No.
Inspired by twistings of? Yes.
One question, Jinn: why did you put up a picture of the 2004 Republican National Convention?
lol! Yes I think that's Klansman Cheney sitting front left, and All Exalted Knight George W. beside him. The next two are Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice, hiding their hands of course.
Probably what Cathexis said.
I dont know what was in the minds of it's founders, but I'm pretty certain that their hatred of blacks came first and then they used the Bible to back up their beliefs.
by wideheadofknowledge on Tue Aug 22, 06 10:55pm
That is a red-herring argument, to go off the subject. We are talking about the teachings of religious doctrines. You are talking about the possible acts that any group may carry out, but simply attaching the word "Christians". Besides if "they wiilingly commit acts of terrorism and atrocities" as you stated, then you are contradicting yourself.
"When Christians have the right motivation and (equally importantly) the finances they wiilingly commit acts of terrorism and atrocities." by wideheadofknowledge on Tue Aug 22, 06 10:55pm
That is a red-herring argument, to go off the subject. We are talking about the teachings of religious doctrines. You are talking about the possible acts that any group may carry out, but simply attaching the word "Christians". Besides if "they wiilingly commit acts of terrorism and atrocities" as you stated, then you are contradicting yourself.
"The IRA and Milosevic's cleansing of the Balkans are two recent examples.
The key to understanding this is to realise the political and(occasionally) religious motivations for violence." by wideheadofknowledge on Tue Aug 22, 06 10:55pm
Widehead, you are not listening. When a Christian kills someone, even if the feud is between two religious groups like in the case of North Ireland, it is never inspired by religion itself. In fact, the Northern Ireland conflict is about territory, autonomy, independence and self-rule, with one side that happens to be majority Catholic and the other Protestant. The IRA is the Irish Republican Army, not the Irish Catholic Army. Besides, and I repeat, nowhere in the Bible does it say kill the people of other faiths. However the Quran is replete with such exhorts. For a true Muslim all wars are religious wars. Christians do not go terrorizing people shouting "Jesus is great!" However, Muslims always shout Allah-U-Akbar to get ready for killing.
The war in Bosnia in 1991 started with the breakdown of the Serb-Croat-Muslim coalition. However, the much maligned Milosevic was far from being the only guilty party. It was the Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic, who had publicly declared that Islam could never be at peace with non-Islamic societies (another Islamic teaching), and thus broke from the coalition. Of course the world didn't hear about all the violence comitted by the rebel Muslims against Serb and Croat citizens. The story only became news worthy after the idiot but brutal leader Milosevic sent in his undisciplined but powerful army to quell the violence. However, was Milosevic following the teachings of Christianity? No.
Are you getting the topic now?
You are twisting my words, common sense, logic and the truth all in one here, Jinn. It's a truly masterful display.
You posed a question "where are all the Christian suicide bombers..." etc implying quite clearly that Christians are not guilty of terrorism or evil acts. I pointed out this was not true.
The fact that Islamic fruitcakes chant anything before they die is irrelevant - you are talking about people who have effectively been brainwashed.
I personally know many, many muslims and not a single one has chanted anything whilst preparing to kill me for not being a muslim. You are taking an extreme view and applying it to the masses.
YOU make the leap that Islam somehow directed the terrorists completely ignoring the fact that without political motivation and financial support there simply would be no terrorists.
You irrational, ill-founded and frankly disturbing hatred for Islam is clouding your judgement.
Religion is not the motivating force for terrorism, it is the rationalisation tacked on as an afterthought.
I understand your position. Its like I said before, and its very simple. Your opinion is based on what you don't know. If you havn't read and studied the Quran, you are going to speak from ignorance. Try living up to your log-in name, not your ego.
Widehead, I know you are a wise person that seeks to learn the truth from reliable, trustworthy and credible sources. Obviously your are too skeptical to want to learn about Islam from me. And for the same reasons I'm sure you would not trust Muslims or Islamic websites and sources to give you a fair and unbiased perspective of Islam. So please allow me to suggest you visit . to learn the facts. This is a site created by the ExMuslim Movement. These are fair-mineded people that have complete knowledge of everything that Islam stands for, yet they have left Islam. You will see that the site is not a hate propaganda site, but instead is very professionally presented with sources to back up everything they talk about. You can ask them questions and, you can even debate with them if you wish! Just a suggestion.
Run all this all together:(Faith) (freedom) (dot) (org) to find the site.
Jinn, I am not arguing that the Quran does not contain exhortations to violence - I have my own copy right here.
What I am saying is that scriptural exhortations are irrelevant when it comes to the reason behind terror attacks.
Terrorists do attack becasue it says so in the Quran - they are motivated by politics.
The Quran provides the psychological means to brainwash those chosen to carry out attacks for POLITICAL ends.
Muslims who I come into contact with EVERY SINGLE DAY do not try and kill me for being an infidel, your argument doesn't make any sense.
Islam is no more evil than any religion that can be used to brainwash people to carry out heinous acts.
Christians who kill doctors that perform abortions.
Catholics from Ireland who place bombs at rememberance services.
KKK members who lynched blacks in the 1920s.
Jews who drive tanks over the home of Palestinians.
Hitler using the bible to justify the holocaust.
Islamic terrorists hijacking planes or killing olympic atheletes.
None of these are motivated by religion but religion is the justification from God that allows guilt to placed elsewhere.
^Terrorists do NOT attack becasue it says so in the Quran - they are motivated by politics.
Oops!
are u asking us to guess. this is a factual question.
Oh bull, widehead, who are you trying to fool with that rubbish? So you honestly believe that the 19 year old Muslim who straps a bomb to himself and steps onto a bus filled with schoolchildren is doing so to support his beliefs in politics and not doing it because of his beliefs in his religion, more specifically, that by dying the death of a martyr, he will immediately go to heaven in the most righteous way imaginable? THIS IS POLITICS?
The comparisons of extremists in Christianity and extremists in the Islam world are completely ridiculous when you are looking at it in terms of modern day current events.
The Muslim world is getting left behind, think about it. Take away their oil reserves and what do they have? They once dominated the known world. Now, with the exception of their oil, they are completely unimportant, more to the point, powerless, in the modern world.
They simply do not have the skills and the culture to compete in the modern world. They gave the world mathematics, and some of the most wonderful architecture, so long as the building in question is based on one stone laid on top of one another.
All the skyscrapers in the Arab world were designed and built by 'infidels', their airplanes and telephone systems, even their sewers, all designed by 'infidels', and they need 'infidels' to keep everything running.
This isn't the way Muhammad told them it was going to be. He promised them, in the Koran, that they would control the world. And they all know this because the so called 'higher education' in the Arab world consists mostly of men, only men, memorizing the Koran. And since nothing is ever their fault, then it has to be the fault of someone else, the 'infidels'.
The Muslim world is some 4, maybe 5 hundred years behind the Western world on average, and adding to that problem is thier religious hierarchy who like it that way. People in power are never in favor of a system change that will see their power diminished.
Of course this is true also within the Western world, the roman catholic, the orthodox hierarchies, some who still go around in medieval clothing, are just as guilty.
HOWEVER, and the BIG DIFFERENCE is that the influence of Christian hierarchies on their societies has diminished with great significance over time, where as the Muslim hierarchies have grown.
Muslim radicals have thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of faithful who are perfectly willing to sacrifice their lives because they are told it will please God, sending them directly to heaven, and the 'virgins' they have so 'righteously' earned.
Anyone who believes that this is not a more dangerous situation for the world than that of christian or roman catholic heirarchies is completely ignorant.
The only reason that the majority of people you see on this website arguing that they are one in the same is because they are trying to bait users by bashing religion, such a tired dead horse, but they do it anyway.
The truly sad users are the small percentage who actually believe what they are saying, I pity them greatly. The rest, well, they have other issues to deal with, when they find humor in bashing someone else's beliefs thru the use of proximity to madness.
Try reading all what I write next time.
I have always said that the poor youths who kill themselves and others have been brainwashed by others (using religion) for political purposes.
If what you say is true then every devout muslim would strap on a bomb or go on an infidel killing rampage for that place in heaven. The fact that they don't proves my point.
"Jinn, I am not arguing that the Quran does not contain exhortations to violence - I have my own copy right here." by wideheadofknowledge on Tue Aug 29, 06 12:04am
Glad to hear you say this. Now that you have a Quran, you of course can confirm and conclude this as fact.
WIDEHEAD: "What I am saying is that scriptural exhortations are irrelevant when it comes to the reason behind terror attacks."
Oops! Widehead, owning a Quran does not automaticly give you knowledge of Islam, however studying it and reading it will. I hope you don't think your mere ownership of a Quran is your trump card over me in debate on Islam. Nor should you think for a moment that I just woke up yesterday and decided I was against Islam. Be careful.
WIDEHEAD: "Terrorists do NOT attack becasue it says so in the Quran - they are motivated by politics."
Is that so? Where did you ever get the idea that Islamism was NOT a political ideology? Islam is a facist ideology built on the foundations of totalitarism. As I said before, you must disregard the Bible and Christianity when you examine Islam. The Bible is not the standard. There is very little in common between the two. The Quran is a model for a Mulsim's total way of life. The Quran is a book of strict rules for Muslims to follow, not a silly book of tales as the vast majority of the Bible. The Bible is a twisted historical record at best, as well as a code for moral behavior for living amongst the rest of humankind. A Christian can live his life anyway he wants as long as he respects others. A Muslim must respect Allah to the fullest and live his life the way Allah commands it.
And since when did the premeditated planning, and deliberate and intentional targeting of innocent humans become a legitimate expression of ones political views? Take London for example. There are literally millions of British citizens that oppose the foreign policies of Tony Blair and his government. However, why did only British Muslims who opposed the government murder dozens of other innocent British citizens???? Politics cannot be the motive! True political opponents protest, debate, write letters to their leaders and hold forums. The inspiration of these British Muslims must come from elsewhere. Their willingness to die for their cause must come from some strong belief and conviction that they are acting for a God, to please their God, to receive rewards from their God. Does the Christian God offer reward for murder? Is suicide-murder rewarded by a Christian God? Islamic martyrdom (killing the infidels) is the greatest gift a Muslim can give to his Allah. The rewards from Allah are nothing short of the most deliteful pleasures a young muslim man could ask for. Poor muslims have done this, wealthy muslims have done this and inteligent and educated muslims have done this, but they do it for Allah, no one else.
If any politics are involved its the politics found in Muhammad's teachings in Quran.
There is deep rooted hate and malice in Quran that cannot be changed.
Lets tackle one surah at a time. Start with quran surah 005.051
Political or Religious? You tell me.
The Talmud's teachings are the most evil and racist.
^Your statement doesn't stand up as anything but racism. Don't just say it, prove it.
I'm with Wisehead with this on all the way, i think he's hit the nail right on the head.
"Oops! Widehead, owning a Quran does not automaticly give you knowledge of Islam, however studying it and reading it will. I hope you don't think your mere ownership of a Quran is your trump card over me in debate on Islam. Nor should you think for a moment that I just woke up yesterday and decided I was against Islam. Be careful."
^That's true but also you owning and reading the Quran doesn't make you an expert either, jinn, remember that.
The kkk is just another cult. It is in no way shape or form true to the teachings of christ. Christ would not go around teaching hate. jesus loved us just as we are. I feel sorry for the poor souls who truly believe what they are doing is correct.
Voted : No
They are more worried about the white race then the bible.
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