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COMMENTS:
Voted : No
uh, lemme think about this one... uh... uh... NO! No, I don't think so, not TODAY, oh Spirit of the Unbeliever (JtK)
thanks anyways, CG
Heh, no.
But remember, religion has nothing to do with this. All terrorists are atheists, and there is no such thing as a muslim extremist.
Voted : No
They can kiss my ***
Only, Fox News reporters should convert, and neocons. After all, neocons will do whatever it takes to keep themselves safe.
Voted : No
Of course noone should convert if they do not believe the tenets of Islam.
Jinn is trying to illicit a reaction that tallies with his warped view.
The usual suspects of course agree, blindly without question so no need to address those points.
Im sure we can all quote passages of religious texts out of context in order to spread fear, unfortunately, there are far more wiser people around that see through such blatant Islam baiting.
Terror is used by Americans just as much as people claiming to be acting on the Qu'oran, but it is called by less provocative words such as 'bringing freedom and democracy'...
A bomb cat remove someones head as effectively as a machete, the difference is, I cannot remember the last time anyone used a machete on a child.
STEELHAMSTER: "Of course noone should convert if they do not believe the tenets of Islam."
Yes that's it Steelhamster, talk down to everyone like they are idiots. Why don't you tell them something they don't know?
STEELHAMSTER: "Jinn is trying to illicit a reaction that tallies with his warped view."
Sorry Steelhamster, but isn't this what you are doing? Again you seem to talk like readers here are clueless. Tell me, what are you so paranoid about?
STEELHAMSTER: "The usual suspects of course agree, blindly without question so no need to address those points."
That a boy Steelhamster, insult them some more.
STEELHAMSTER: "Im sure we can all quote passages of religious texts out of context in order to spread fear, unfortunately, there are far more wiser people around that see through such blatant Islam baiting."
Yes, and apparently your mind believes you are one of those "wiser people". That a boy! Such modesty.
STEELHAMSTER: Terror is used by Americans just as much as people claiming to be acting on the Qu'oran, but it is called by less provocative words such as 'bringing freedom and democracy'..."
Wow! Visit the mosque today did we? You sound just like a radical Imam or like a bin Laden clone.
STEELHAMSTER: "A bomb cat(sic) remove someones head as effectively as a machete, the difference is, I cannot remember the last time anyone used a machete on a child."
Guess you didn't hear about the beheaded Christian children (girls) in Indonesia. While walking to school they were kidnaped by some village Muslims, taken into the bushes and had their heads cut off while they were alive...of course it was done the halal way so it was acceptable to Allah.
Ever heard of Beslan? No Islamic terror against innocent children is quite so complete unless deliberately planned ahead of time and then done on purpose...in front of other screaming children and their mothers!
Jinn, and how many incidents against Muslims are there? What caused the Beslan incident? Why were the radicals so willing to kill? They too, suffered the loss of their families, children,etc. To quote one Russian woman who asked a Muslim: "Why are you doing this?? Don't you care that I have a son??" To which the soldier replied, "Didn't you care when your soldiers were killing my son?" I know it might be easy to say, "It's all Islam, they're all a bunch of screaming monkeys, but at the same time, there are other factors contributing. I would say that conficts like that are more out of nationalism, rather than feelings of religious fervor. It's the same thing that leads people to become Tamil Tigers.
by aya on Sun Sep 03, 06 8:01pm
[+]
STEELHAMSTER: Terror is used by Americans just as much as people claiming to be acting on the Qu'oran, but it is called by less provocative words such as 'bringing freedom and democracy'..."
Wow! Visit the mosque today did we? You sound just like a radical Imam or like a bin Laden clone.
And how is that? YOu believe that the AMericans are bringing democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan? Is that why Afghanis are so pissed at the perks that foriegners are getting? Is that why Iraqis are so happy now, free from Saddam (who by the way, was supported by the States?)
You must be a follower on Jihad Watch, correct?
by aya on Sun Sep 03, 06 8:02pm
[+]
You have to speak slowly to Jinn, else he might get confused.
He is a bigot, and possibky beyond redemption.
I wonder how many muslims he actually met, possibly the number that he has brain cells.
Sorry to offend muslims, but I've read the Qu'ran and Islam is so false. Mohammed is the best fraud in history and he got away with it. In the Qu'ran it says to give 10% of your "war booty" to Allah's prophet.
I read the biography on Mohammed. He made up his religion (Islam) and told his tribe to convert. They didn't believe him and mocked him. He went to another tribe who DID believe him and killed the tribe his family hailed from.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace no matter what way you feel about the war on terror or what side the political barrier you stand on.
The Qu'ran quote violence against any non beleivers. When a muslim approches you he is supposed to give you three options.
1.)Convert to Islam
2.)Pay the Jiyza(tax) to worship their god in their own religion
3.)Kill them
In history muslims always told their enemies before they killed them to convert to Islam and they would be spared. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW.
No I am not racist
No I don't hate all muslims
Steelhamster, if you believe the teachings of the Quran are being taken out of context, then you obviously are claiming you know the true context. Why don't you explain it to us, since you know quran better than the Taliban, Khomeini, bin laden and the Islamic clerics and Imams of this world.
Fear and ignorance breeds hate and hate breeds violence.
What is the answer to the growing tide of extremism?
Bomb them into the stone age, or try to forge communication lines?
Thanks for asking Aya, but no, I do not follow Jihad watch. I am part of, and follow an organization called the Ex-Muslim Movement. Their website is (Faithfreedom) (dot) (org. It is not a place of bigotry, hate, malice, vendictivness, racism etc..It is professional, intelligent, truthful, honest and peaceful loving people there. We are all against hate.
STEELHAMSTER: "Fear and ignorance breeds hate and hate breeds violence."
Yes, and this is exactly how Muhammad promoted his Islam. Its not Islamphobia we should be discussing, for that is a fallacy term. It is "Infidelphobia" that Muhammad created. He tought that unbelievers are evil, pigs, dogs, najis (filthy). That they should be either subdued and converted, or be captured, tortured, enslaved or killed. Muhammad has tought that Islam is superior to all other beliefs, faiths and powers. How can the world and humanity advance toward peace when 1.5 billion people believe this?
STEELHAMSTER: "What is the answer to the growing tide of extremism? Bomb them into the stone age, or try to forge communication lines?
The only answer is to get Muslims to see the truth about Muhammad. He was not a messenger from and god. He self-proclaimed this, nobody told him this. Muhammad was a brutal terrorist, a pedophile, a murderer, a torturer, a rapist, a slave keeper, a common thief, looter and a madman.
Those are not the qualities of a true holy man and prophet! Muslims need to learn this truth. If they wont listen, then relentless worldwide ridicule and scorn is a totally acceptable means of getting the message through to them. It is already working. Muslims are leaving Islam in droves, even as you read this. Islam is weakening. Soon only the most desperate and violent will be left. They will be taken care of by justifyable means.
When the west and many other nations declared war on terrorism, they did not realize at the time that they had in fact declared war upon Islam. They know it now.
Why do you think all the true muslims are now coming out of the woodwork in every infidel nation? Exposed plots, shootings, bombmings, SUV attacks. These are the desperate one's, and we will see many more soon before it is over.
Look, if you're going to condemn Islam then you have to condemn Judaism and Christianity.
Here's the first commandment:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
What matters even more than the words is how people interpret them. Think about how someone might interpret that last sentence.
Islam is no more immune to extremist interpretation (i.e. holy texts as God's word and God's law) than Christianity. For example, the Inquisition.
Extremism is a human characteristic, and it has never been confined to any one belief system.
^ major difference between judaism/christianity and islam is that while all contain passages that lend themselves to violence muslims are the only ones currently using them comit acts of violence on such a global scale.
APPLEROD: "Look, if you're going to condemn Islam then you have to condemn Judaism and Christianity."
Well Applerod. Firstly, I don't believe in any religion. For me the very concept of a god sending messengers to save us or to be known and worshipped is absurd. So I reject them all. However, I am not necessarily against people following religions. I believe everyone is entitled to freedom of thought and diversity. Diversity meaning to have the luxury to think and believe differently and independantly. But at the same time I can only respect religions that preach love and unity and are tolerant of other beliefs, even if I do not agree with their theological philosophy. Islam is of course not tolerant of other beliefs.
Secondly, I have no business to criticize the religions of others, unless they become a danger to me, my family, my friends, my community or humanity itself. I speak out against Islam, not because it is a religion nor because it is false, but because it preaches hate and divides humankind into "brothers" and "enemies". Islam is fascist concept that tends to unite only the believers using the leverage of hatred for the non-believers (non-muslims). Sure, other religions have violent histories from centuries long ago in the past. But who cares about that? We must confront today's problems, not those of our ancient ancestors. We cannot tolerate the violence of Islamic terrorism simply because of what happened in Christianity during the middle ages. That would be silly and absurd!
Thirdly, the reason people like me focus mostly on Islam is because Christianity and Judaism have already been exposed and de-mystified long ago, much of that being done by many scholars born within the Judaic and Christendoms. The biggest critics of Judaism and Christianity have always been their own followers. Thus these religions have reformed to the modern humanistic concepts of today. Too bad the same can't be said for Islam, whose followers will gladly take their own lives to defend their precious Islam and please their god.
And lastly, we have to look at the teachings of all these religions to see how their tenents inspire the behaviour of their respective followers in our modernistic world, as well as how they will play out in the future of human civilization.
In doing this we can clearly conclude that unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism represent no threat to the peace and security of the world. In fact these religions are on the decline. Islam on the other hand, is a growing and constant menace to world peace as well as to Muslims themselves, who are quite capable of sacrificing their own lives in order to destroy their percieved "enemies" of Islam. We all know the level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than that of the average Christians or Jews.
I think I have a better idea of where you're coming from now.
The truth is, I don't know enough about Islam to say from an objective standpoint whether or not it lends itself more to violence than Christianity or Judaism. (I'm taking a class on the world's religions though, so that might help a bit.) My hunch is they're about the same, because each is wide open to interpretation.
What I'm saying is that it's just not sound to indict the entire religion because of the actions of the relative few. I don't remember many people decrying Islam until after September 11th. I can understand your reaction, though.
If you said there was a radical movement within Islam, I might say I agree with you; but I still contend that this movement doesn't represent the majority. If it did, there would be more widespread violence than there already is.
- I just feel it would be better on all fronts to focus on specific individuals who represent a clear threat (I.E. Bin Laden) than to view the religion as the problem. Furthermore, religion is not the soul motivation behind these current acts of violence and terrorism.
(As an aside, I also wonder how big a role religion plays in President Bush's decision-making process. I don't know.)
I would rather have sex with a relative than convert to Islam
APPLEROD: "The truth is, I don't know enough about Islam to say from an objective standpoint whether or not it lends itself more to violence than Christianity or Judaism."
Which is why opinions are not facts. They are not helpful. I base my beliefs on my facts, not my facts on my beliefs.
APPLEROD: "My hunch is they're about the same, because each is wide open to interpretation."
Is not a "hunch" even less credible than an opinion. I'm sure you don't guide your whole life on hunches, but with knowledge and education of truth and facts. Should not "open interpretaion" of religious doctrines be enough to prove how false, how stupid and how dangerous religions are to humanity? What good is a road map if it leads people to different places when they are trying to reach the same point. That map is of no use to anyone and should be disgarded immediately! And if the religious followers are taking their doctrine's teachings, scriptures, verses and surahs out of their context, then what use are they? Who knows the true context of these scriptures, and if they know it why don't they tell us what it is? Someone should be responsible for doing this. Was God a cruel practical joker? Is not god supposed to be infallible, perfect and incapable of error?
Take Quran for example. The words in quran are supposed to be the words of Allah himself. Quran repeatedly claims to be a "clear book" (Q5:15), "easy to understand" (Q44:58), (Q54:22), (Q54:32), (Q54:40), "explained in detail" (Q6:114), "conveyed clearly", (Q5:16, Q10:15) and with "no doubt" in it (Q2:1). Claiming that Quran cannot be understood or is not clear or is easily misinterpreted is disbelieving in the Quran itself. If Muslims cannot interpret god's teachings, then was god a complete idiot? Of course, the apologists do not realize that what they say is apostasy. Claiming that Quran cannot be understood by muslims or is not clear to muslims is disbelieving in quran itself.
APPLEROD: "What I'm saying is that it's just not sound to indict the entire religion because of the actions of the relative few.
I will disregard your "relative few" comment. I do not believe you quite that naive and ignorant of Islamic behavior around the globe.
However, the violent acts of Mulsims around the world are not near as troubling to people like me as are those Islamic surahs that inspire Muslims to kill and terrorize others. The danger of Islam is that the quran exists, period! As you know, it only takes a handful of good Muslims to destroy thousands of infidels (unbelievers).
Q8:65: "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers." How many murdering islamic terrorists do you need before you are convinced the quran is a dangerous doctrine of hate? Shouldn't just ONE Muslim attacking infidels, because of his beliefs and what his doctrine teaches, be enough to raise the alarm. Do you not recall the attempted mass-murder last march, in Chapel Hill, NC, by muslim Mohammed Reza Taheri-Azar. This man told the police his act was because of what Allah teaches in quran. He is even going to defend himself with his strong beliefs by bringing and using the quran into court to prove this! Convicted terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui did the same.
APPLEROD: "I don't remember many people decrying Islam until after September 11th. I can understand your reaction, though.
Your memory is irrelevent. What difference should 9/11 make, or when YOU first heard others decrying Islam. If the evidence and facts show that Islam is a doctrine of hate, no different from Nazism or the KKK, why should it matter when you first heard people speakout against Islam. You should be concerened with the facts. Should your memory make Islam any less dangerous and threatening than it is?
APPLEROD: "If you said there was a radical movement within Islam, I might say I agree with you; but I still contend that this movement doesn't represent the majority. If it did, there would be more widespread violence than there already is.
- I just feel it would be better on all fronts to focus on specific individuals who represent a clear threat (I.E. Bin Laden) than to view the religion as the problem. Furthermore, religion is not the soul motivation behind these current acts of violence and terrorism."
Well Applerod, I don't know if you need to use one your hunches, or to get a severe reality check. The entire world itself is in a "radical movement", and has been for several decades. It's a very small world today. The population has grown by billions since WWII. Technology has progressed by leaps and bounds since then, with some nations advancing much faster than others. The big wideworld has now become the "global village". World travel and migration of various peoples has never been so great as in the last half century. But the world has improved, advanced and modernized at a far greater speed for some (democratic) nations than it has for others. Some nations are still virtually stuck in the middle ages. Thus "The Clash of Civilizations". The people's of these nations want to assimilate with the rest of the world, but they are also not letting go of the past. There is a natural envy and jealousy that creeps in with many of these peoples, especially with the Arabs, who were once a proud and advanced people...before they let Islam creep in. Their original thriving and beautiful culture was destroyed by Islam. Once the leaders in science, they are now against science because Muhammad rejected all forms of education in order to hold control of his sheeple. Muhammad knew that if people started to think for themselves, they would begin to question his lies. So now 85% of Muslims around the world are illiterate, and all they have is their precious Islam to guide them.
In the last few decades, and thanks to the newfound wealth of the oil rich Islamic countries and massive immigration to the West, Islamic fundamentalism has been on the rise and the dormant spirit of Jihadism has been rekindled once again. This fervor has been translated into terrorism, revolutions, and upheavals, and world peace has been put in jeopardy. Millions of lives are now in danger. Khomeini came to Iran in 1979 to become the new spiritual leader for the Islamic revolution that ousted the "westernized" Shah. Now Iran is completely theocratic, and a menace to its neighbors and the world. The true muslims of Iran the Mullahs, understand that the entire world belongs to Allah. The Iranian leaders have been running a steady campaign since to promote Islam and rid the world of Infidels. Anything unIslamic is not acceptable to them, especially the hated Jews. Khomeini's revolution is growing around the world. And don't forget the the Taliban did the same in Afghanistan, and they too became a new threat to their neighbors and the world. Al-qaeda was born there.
Is this the "radical movement" of Islam you were asking about? The one followed by millions of Muslims? The true mulsims are Khomeini, the Mullahs, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Taliban. Usama bin Laden is among the truest to his faith. A few? Me thinks not.
APPLEROD: "(As an aside, I also wonder how big a role religion plays in President Bush's decision-making process. I don't know.)"
It plays a very big role, because that religion is ISLAM.
You have to wonder if a Muslim dropped Jinn as a baby.
How do you know god didnt talk to mohammed?
God talks to GWB all the time, but noone seems to question it on the right.
Odd that
Has George Bush ever claimed he is a prophet? No.
Nobody ever told Muhammad he was a prophet and messenger from God. He simply self-proclaimed it! And he told this to anyone that would believe him, and killed those that didn't. Cult leaders virtually always make the claim that they are holy prophets from god. Koresh, Jim Jones, Asahara, Manson, Appewhite.
One would think that a true prophet from god, as Muhammad claimed he was, would lead his people with the example of a real holy man. There was nothing holy about Muhammad at all. He was a common thief, a rapist, a pedophile, a mass-murderer, a assassin, a terrorist, a looter, a ruthless torturer, a slave keeper and a narcissist and mentally deranged man. Are these the qualities of a real prophet and messenger from God, a holyman?
Clearly you have some very strong feelings about this, and I'd like to continue this conversation, but only on the condition that you don't insult me and get personal. I of course will do the same. Let's focus on the issues instead of each other, about which we know virtually nothing. Agreed?
I assume Applerod, that you are addressing me. I agree, however, I sincerely hope that you also follow your request of me.
Yes, I have strong feelings which are based on facts. Can you prove my charges against Muhammad are wrong? Nobody can. Not even the most learned Islamic Scholar can.
Didn't think it was an offer you would take.
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