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COMMENTS:
FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" 06 Jun 2006 "On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, 'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.'"
Anyone who believes that is either delusional or pathetically gullible.
"...a real-life detective story that presents well researched accounts of how wargames and other "UNINVESTIGATED" activities affected events on 9/11."
Funny how the hype of the promotional subtitle does not even claim the government intentionally plotted 9/11???
Writing, publishing and selling books is all about big $$$$, isn't it Ken? A good conspiracy theory has many writers laughing all the way to the bank, then they go lounge on an isolated tropical beach somewhere, sipping on a colorful cocktail with a little umbrella in it..while concocting their next big sucker's story. There's the real conspiracy behind conspiracies. $$$$$
^^^ LOL! ^^^
The sweet irony, will I tell him or will you folks? ;^)
He just doesn't get does he?... and probably never will.
Keep up the good work on the racist anti-Islamic ballots Jinn, and the 600 year old texts that no one knows or cares about.
So what Ken the Prebyterian Church says Bush was behind 9/11 is that suppose to mean something?Anybody can claim anything but those who have real arguments back it up with proof.BTW Bin Laden did claim responsiblity for 9/11 remember that tape that aired in 2003?
That was faked, he has always denied ersponsibility.
You will probably not know this because of US sponsored media censorship but Osama Bin Laden has from the very day of the 9/11 denied any involvement in the attacks, and does to this day, in an interview shortly after the massacre he had this to say -
'I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened.
You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government (PNAC - Ken) must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.'
'...the Prebyterian Church says Bush was behind 9/11 is that suppose to mean something?'
Corrupt
Yeah, you answered your own question.
Typo - 'responsibility' - Ken
Ken where did you get that quote from?Also Bush did not approve 40 billion dollar budget Congress did and that money went to National security and defense.
Lincoln, Roosevelt and Kennedy warn of Bush
by Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, Robert Kennedy
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-Abraham Lincoln
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. What, in its essence, is Fascism, but ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
"It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert Kennedy
if the bush administration had arranged it themselves, they would not have invaded afghanistan at all, they would have blamed husein from the start and invaded iraq. the fact that the blame went to someone they diddn't give a grap about, and the fact that it was so incredibly difficult for them to cast blame on the guy they were REALLY after show that they were trying to take advantage of a situation they themselves were not responsible for.
end of discussion
"I say to you,Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers.But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon it came to my mind."- OBL 2004, Al Jazeera broadcast network.
"We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three of four floors.I was the most optimistic of them all... We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.We had finished our work that day and had the radio on... Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family,was in charge of the group..." -OBL 2001, videotape discovered in a house in Jalalabad Afgh.
Not once but twice Bin Laden admitted involvement in the attacks Ken.Did the U.S government fake both of these tapes?
Yeah, they did fake them Corrupt, sure it's not even Osama in the video, see my related ballot.
Heres what Osama said in an interview immediately after the attacks, and I re-quote;
'I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened.
You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government (PNAC - Ken) must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.'
See? - bet you didn't know about that Corrupt did you? - Because it never gets mmentioned in the US government controlled mind slum that is the US media.
Alright Ken what proof do you have both of those tapes are fake?
Osama's denial of any involvement, the fact that it is clearly not Osama in the video (see my related ballot folks), but most of all - the fact that he has been very dead since December 2001.
Oh and I think this deserves a repost as proof that Osama wasn't involved - perhaps you missed it first time round Corrupt -
FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" 06 Jun 2006
"On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11.
The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, 'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.'"
Ken those quotes I posted are from two different videotapes when in two different interviews Bin Laden admitted he was directly behind 9/11?So are both of those tapes fakes?Also if Bin Laden and Al Qeada was not behind 9/11 why hasn't any of Al Qeada's high command come out and deny invovlement in the attacks?What do they want to lose sympathy for their cause and have the rest of the world turn against them?
Wow now you're saying Bin Laden is dead;what proof do you have of that?
Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.
With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival?
The US Federal Bureau of Investigation's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead.
The editor-in-chief of a London-based Arab news magazine said a purported will it published Saturday was written late last year by Osama bin Laden, and shows "he's dying or he's going to die soon."
Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader. "The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.
"This was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union"
till?
Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.
With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival? (NEW YORK TIMES)
The US Federal Bureau of Investigation's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead. (BBC)
The editor-in-chief of a London-based Arab news magazine said a purported will it published Saturday was written late last year by Osama bin Laden, and shows "he's dying or he's going to die soon." (CNN)
Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader. "The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said. (FOX NEWS)
i've already proven that the person on the video looks exactly the same as every other picture of osama bin laden.
nice job ignoring my point by the way.
you know, there were reports of canadian soldiers finding bin laden dead in afghanistan, having died in battle. there are a lot of reports.
That wasn't Osama in the video neothe and you know it, you are in a cold dark place called denial, let the light of truth shine on you, feel it's warmth - for the truth will set you free.
Ken this is all hear say from unverified sources.If the Pakistanis have proof that Bin Laden is dead why don't they share it with the west?Musharfa is no fan of the Islamic radicals,they tried to kill him on several occassions and he being an abosolute dictator does not tolerate rival powers.If he had proof Bin Laden was dead he would share it inorder to quite down the radicals in his nation and affirm the power of his regime.You're not making any sense Ken.
Also the Pakistan Observer is a biased source they support militant Islam.Check out this headline from their site, "Hizbullah's victory has transformed the middle east." Does that sound like imparital reporting to you?
"Ken this is all hear say from unverified sources."
WRONG WRONG WRONG! -yet again!
You are in denial, I clearly stated the sources, BBC, New York Times, CNN and FOX. (DUH)
FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" 06 Jun 2006 "On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, 'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.'"
What about that Corrupt?
The FBI believe there is no hard evidence linking Osama to 9/11.
Do you believe the FBI are just mistaken Corrupt???
"WRONG WRONG WRONG!"
do your parents know you're using their computer?
isn't it funny how the fbi is the word of god when you think it supports you?
you're still ignoring my point. this discussion is over.
Isn't it just!
There are obviously some honest people working for the FBI.
Killer isn't it neothe1? ;O)
FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" 06 Jun 2006 "On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, 'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.'"
What about that Corrupt?
The FBI believe there is no hard evidence linking Osama to 9/11.
Do you believe the FBI are just mistaken Corrupt???
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your refusal to acknowledge my point's existence proves your dishonesty, bushie.
No Ken the FBI is not mistaken but when the FBI say's there is no "hard" evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11 I believe they mean the only evidence they have that Bin Laden was behind 9/11 is what enemy combatants and Bin Laden himself have admitted to.
Answer this question Ken if the American government was really behind 9/11 why would the FBI say they lack hard evidence against Bin Laden and allow any doubt to enter the public' mind?Does the shadow government want us to know that they committed these crimes?
hard evidence means physical evidence, right?
i am starting to get the impression that ken is in fact not lovelynice, but a victim of lovelynice and his/her aliases, an at the most 13 year old kid who has no idea he's been suckered into helping the bush administration smear their enemies.
or he's just behaving like a baby as part of his strawman sockpuppet routine.
{Bin Laden himself have admitted to.
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 5:47pm}
What are you smoking? Osama bin Laden didn't admit to planning 9/11 at all. That fake confession video is just that, FAKE.
There was one other video which came in two versions; the original, and the USA government edited version. In the orginal, Osama bin Laden straight out denies involvement and says that a faction of the USA government was behind it. In the edited version, this part is cut-off short to make it appear as Osama bin Laden was claiming credit when he wasn't.
The other bad habit of the USA government with those Osama bin Laden videos (apart from faking two of them entirely) was deliberatly misleading translation of Arabic. I'm glad that I live in a country where the news services don't take anything at face value from the USA news media but do their own checking.
{paste paste paste
by neothe1 on Sun Sep 03, 06 5:43pm}
and I get the impression that neothe1 is still a stupid spammer who replies with SPAM because he can't argue with facts.
Do you believe the FBI are just mistaken Corrupt???
by Ken_from_Dublin
"No Ken the FBI is not mistaken ..."
- By Corrupt
I rest my case. (o:
{why would the FBI say they lack hard evidence against Bin Laden and allow any doubt to enter the public' mind?
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 5:47pm}
Because the FBI is not under the complete brainwashed control of the conspirators. Just like the FDNY firemen have their own minds and are not brainwashed, so they can say that they witnessed explosions at the WTC buildings.
So when the FBI discovered no hard evidence, they stated such officially.
It's called honesty. It happens sometimes.
^Not fair Ken the issue is not that simple and you know it.Answer my question please.
Lovely why don't you site your sources rather than babble on about how great your nation is?
{ Wow now you're saying Bin Laden is dead;what proof do you have of that?
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 4:28pm}
Yes, Osama bin Laden is dead. It's been dead for a loooooong time. Just because you hide your head in the sand because you side lost their favourite "boogeyman" is not going to make him come back to life.
Lovely I will ask you the same thing I asked Ken wear is the proof that Bin Laden is dead?You make these wild claims and you back them up with air.
{Lovely why don't you site your sources rather than babble on about how great your nation is?
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 6:09pm}
Which nation is that? I only LIVE in Japan, I'm not a japanese citizen. They just happen to have a truly free news media in comparison to the USA, and it's freedom is guaranteed in that USA-enforced peace-constitution that Japan has. Backed by judges who don't back down, and really do take the legal view rather than the political view, because they aren't elected, and aren't part of the government's political administration but seperate from it. They are not political appointees either.
I've also cited my sources so many times on 9/11 related ballots that it's ridiculous and dishonest of you to pretend otherwise.
Do you really want me to fill pages and pages with the thousands of words of copy & pasted quotes and sources and links that I have available? Just so as to answer the same repeated nonsense you shills keep coming up with as if your nonsense claims hadn't been blown away hundreds of times before already?
{Lovely I will ask you the same thing I asked Ken wear is the proof that Bin Laden is dead?You make these wild claims and you back them up with air.
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 6:15pm}
So now you ignore the news media that Ken from Dublin already quoted, plus the quoted links and sources which Coldcircuit posted on his ballot on the subject of when did Osama bin Laden die.
He's dead, get over it.
Yes that is exactly what I want you to do,you do it all the time but know when I ask for some proof of Bin Laden's death you're all of a sudden gun shy.Looks like you got nothing but you're imagination and false logic to back you up.
The news media the Ken sited?You mean the Pakistan Observer?Lol yeah they're as fair and imparital as Al Jazeera.
{The news media the Ken sited?You mean the Pakistan Observer?Lol yeah they're as fair and imparital as Al Jazeera.
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 6:27pm}
Which compared to the USA news media are the very epitome of credibility. They didn't tell LIES about WMDs in Iraq, LIES about the FAKE Osama video with the MrFatNose FAKE "Osama" who doesn't look anything like the Real (and now dead) Osama bin Laden, LIES about the FAKE tape-recordings which were claimed to be from Osama bin Laden but FAILED to pass any INDEPENDENT testing.
In the international non-English news media, and in many non-US English-language media, the report of Osama bin Laden's death was widely reported, and you're ignoring of this fact isn't going to convince anyone.
According to the Pakistani press, and the Egyptian newspaper, al-Wafd, (Wednesday, December 26, 2001 Vol 15 No 4633) Bin Laden died in December 2001 of pulmonary complications incident to catastrophic kidney failure, in the absence of available hygienic dialysis.
The Egyptian newspaper al-Wafd published an article dated Wednesday, December 26, 2001, (Vol 15 No 4633) describing bin Laden's funeral:
"News of Bin Laden's Death and Funeral 10 days ago
ISLAMABAD - A prominent official in the Afghan Taleban movement announced yesterday the death of Osama bin Laden, the chief of al-Qa'da organization, stating that binLaden suffered serious complications in the lungs and died a natural and quiet death. The official, who asked to remain anonymous, stated to The Observer of Pakistan that he had himself attended the funeral of bin Laden and saw his face prior to burial in Tora Bora 10 days ago. He mentioned that 30 of al-Qa'da fighters attended the burial as well as members of his family and some friends from the Taleban. ..."
Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen TEL AVIV - Osama Bin Laden appears to be dead but his colleagues have decided that Al Qaida and its insurgency campaign against the United States will continue, Israeli intelligence sources said. The Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are probably FABRICATIONS, Middle East Newsline reported.
(CNN, Oct 7, 2002) KABUL, Afghanistan - Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead, but former Taliban leader Mullah Omar is alive, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said.
(BBC, 18 July 2002) The US Federal Bureau of Investigation's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead.
The Central Intelligence Agency also long ago closed the unit that for years had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded ages ago. There's no use in hunting for a long dead guy, right?
nytimes . com / 2006 / 07 / 04 / washington / 04intel . h t m l ? ex = 1152676800 & en = 2576b5ef6af849cc&ei = 5070 & emc = eta1
Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen
216 . 26 . 163 . 62 / 2002 / me _ terrorism _ 10 _ 16 . h t m l
Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader. "The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.
foxnews . com / story / 0 , 2933 , 41576 , 00 . h t m l
The news media the Ken sited?You mean the Pakistan Observer?Lol yeah they're as fair and imparital as Al Jazeera.
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 6:27pm
Osama bin Laden is DEAD.
Get over it and stop pretending that he's alive.
Never pretend that I'm "gun shy" either. You look like an idiot everytime you do.
Osama Tape Appears Fake, Experts Conclude
US government fabricating evidence to manipulate American public, scholars say.
Duluth, MN (PRWEB) May 30, 2006 -- The latest audio tape attributed to Osama bin Laden appears to be one more installment in a succession of evidence fabricated by the US government to deceive the American people, according to Scholars for 9/11 Truth. "This tape is only the latest in a series of fabrications intended to mislead the American people," said James H. Fetzer, the society's founder. "The closer we get to revealing the truth about 9/11, the more furiously the government fights to conceal it!"
He said members of Scholars and other experts had detected evidence of fakery.
In this new recording, a voice attributed to Osama bin Laden asserts that Zacarias Moussaoui was not involved in 9/11, which he knew to be the case because he had personally assigned the 19 hijackers involved in those events. The Osama of this tape thereby implicitly confesses his responsibility for orchestrating the attacks. However, in a tape released on December 27, 2001, the authenticity of which is not in doubt, Osama denied having had anything to do with 9/11. "Moreover," Fetzer added, "some of the 19 hijackers he 'personally assigned' have turned up alive and well."
To be sure, this new tape is not the first one in which bin Laden appears to take responsibility for the attacks. As David Ray Griffin, a prominent member of Scholars, points out, "The Osama on the video tape that appeared on December 13, 2001, confessed to planning the 9/11 attacks. But he is far darker and much heavier than the real Osama bin Laden. People can see the difference by looking up 'The Fake bin Laden Video Tape' on Google."
Griffin's point is supported by a work-in-progress by members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which appears on its web site under the heading, "9/11: Have we been lied to?" It offers evidence of fakery in some of the videos based upon various physical properties of the figures that are presumed to be Osama, pointing out that there are differences in the ears, cheeks, eyebrows, length of the nose and shape of the nostrils. "The use of computer analysis can 'fine tune' these questions of facial characteristics," Fetzer said, "but the gross differences already show they are not the same."
"Another problem with the video of December 13, 2001," Griffin pointed out, "was that its stocky bin Laden praised two of the alleged hijackers, Wail M. Al-Shehri and Salem al-Hazmi, by name, and yet both the London Telegraph and the Saudi embassy reported several days after 9/11 that al-Hazmi was still alive and working in Saudi Arabia. Given the fact that the earlier video in which Osama confessed was clearly a fake, we should be suspicious of this latest apparent confession."
A professor at Duke, Bruce Lawrence, who has published Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama bin Laden, expressed profound skepticism about a tape that was released January 17, 2006, in a report that appeared two days later. "There's nothing in this from the Koran," Lawrence said. "He's, by his own standards, a faithful Muslim who quotes scripture in defense of his actions. There's no quotation from the Koran in the excerpts we got, no reference to specific events, no reference to past atrocities." Lawrence also observed the tape ran only 10 minutes, whereas the shortest previous tape, at 18 minutes, was nearly twice as long.
Fetzer noted that many of the same anomalous properties are found in the latest tape. "Compared to Osama's past performances," he observed, "this message is too short, too direct, and full of falsehoods. It was even described on CBS News by Bob Schieffer as 'almost American'." A translation of the text of the tape has also been released by IntelCenter, a private company that does contract work for the US government.
Authentic Voice/Fake Content
Informed that Reuters news agency has reported confirmation that the voice on the tape is indeed that of Osama bin Laden, Fetzer replied, "The fact that the voice is his does not prove that the tape is authentic. We have had phony tapes before using voices that were authentic. Mark Bingham, a passenger on Flight 93, is supposed to have called his mother and said, 'Hi, Mom, this is Mark Bingham!' His mother confirmed it was his voice, but does anyone seriously believe that Mark Bingham would have used his last name in identifying himself to his mother?"
Griffin agreed, adding, "Back in 1999, William Arkin published an article entitled, 'When Seeing and Hearing isn't Believing' (which can also be accessed on Google). Describing the new technology of 'voice morphing' (or 'voice synthesizing'), Arkin explained that, if audio technicians have a recording of your voice, then they can create a tape in which your voice‹your authentic voice!‹says anything they wish."
In a press release on April 22, 2006, the Scholars observed that a tape played at the trail of Zacarias Moussaoui included discussion among the passengers about using a drink cart to break down the cabin door alleged to have been picked up on a cockpit voice recorder, which does not record conversations in the passenger cabin. "This is not the first and certainly will not be the last time that the American government plays the American people for suckers," Fetzer said.
"We have just acquired new evidence that the Pentagon video tapes were processed and manipulated in an apparent effort to distort or conceal what happened there on 9/11," Fetzer observed. "Apparently, whenever the government feels the need to bolster the official myth about 9/11, it simply fabricates a new tape! Anybody who wants to keep score
should visit our web site."
Scholars for 9/11 Truth is a non-partisan society of experts and scholars dedicated to exposing falsehoods and establishing truths about the events of 9/11. It maintains a web site at st911.org, where it archives its studies, documents, records and evidence.
Al Queda is FAKE too.
Do you want to question that assertion as well?
Or can you prove them to be a real organisation when so much evidence says otherwise?
People saying that Bin Laden is "probably" dead is not proof Lovely it is mere speculation and as for Israeli intelligence well they didn't even know what Hizbollah had in their arsenal so I wouldn't be raving over what they have to say.
Anything more solid then this vapor you have produced?How about a world leader or the head of a law enforcement agency saying that he abosolutely believes Bin Laden is dead?
Also did you even read your sources before you posted them because they contradict eachother.The Egyptian newspaper say's Bin Laden died of kidney failure while the Pakistan observer says he died of lung complications that could not be treated.Now that's what I call quailty journalism!
{People saying that Bin Laden is "probably" dead is not proof Lovely
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 6:56pm}
That's nice, but they don't just say "probably dead" do they?
The news services also said he is dead. Not just probably. But actually dead. That's why the Taliban and his family had a funeral and issued his funeral notice. Because he's dead.
You can pretend he's alive if you want, but he's going to stay dead. Nothing you can do about that. He's dead, get over it.
Have you seen an undead Osama bin Laden walking around and doing live interviews lately? No? How about a video from him since December 2001 that wasn't fake? The "confession video" of December 2001 was fake, as anyone merely glancing at it can tell as MrFatNose is definitely not Osama bin Laden.
The USA government folks who faked the video thought that they could get away with the FAKE, but it didn't work. The 2004 video was also caught out as another FAKE. A little better poseur, but still a FAKE.
Your excuses don't work.
The man is long dead. He'll stay dead. He's not coming back, and he's not going to prove you right by going to a live interview because he's dead.
{The Egyptian newspaper say's Bin Laden died of kidney failure while the Pakistan observer says he died of lung complications that could not be treated.
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 7:03pm}
Lung complications and kidney failure. Sadly since you are not going to read the full articles, it's unlike you will ever admit that you are wrong.
He's still dead.
AL QUEDA IS FAKE TOO
1. We have MI5 (British CIA) posing as Alqueda.
"Al-Qaeda cleric exposed as an MI5 double agent",
timesonline . co . uk / print Friendly /0 , , 1 - 3 - 1050175 , 00 . h t m l
2. We have Mossad (Israel CIA) posing as ALqueda in Palestine:
whatreallyhappened . com / fakealqaeda . h t m l
larouchepub . com / other / 2002 / 2949idf _ qaeda . ht m l
antiwar . com / justin / j120902 . h t m l
propagandamatrix . com / palestinians _ arrest _ al _ qaeda _ poseurs. h t m l
haaretzdaily.com / hasen / pages / ShArt . jhtml ? item No = 241042 & contrass ID = 2&subContrassID = 5 & sbSubContrassI D = 0 & listSrc = Y & itemNo = 241042
whatreallyhappened . com / terrorist . h t m l
3. We have USA posing as Alqueda:
whatreallyhappened . com / fakealqaeda . h t m l
The FBI lists Gadahn's aliases as Abu Suhayb Al-Amriki, Abu Suhayb, Yihya Majadin Adams, Adam Pearlman, and Yayah. But Adam Pearlmen is his REAL name! Adam is the grandson of the late Carl K. Pearlman; a prominent Jewish urologist in Orange County. Carl was also a member of the board of directors of the Anti-Defamation League, which was caught spying on Americans for Israel in 1993, much as AIPAC has been caught up in the more recent spy scandal.
3. We have Israel posing as alqueda in the phillipines.
whatreallyhappened . com / qaeda _ philippines . h t m l
mb . com. ph / PROV 2004061411759 . h t m l
4. British SAS posing as Iraqi Insurgants:
The two British operatives, arrested by Basra police and later freed by a British military operation, were identified by the BBC as "members of the SAS elite special forces
They were disguised by wigs and Arab dress. Iraqi sources reported that the Iraqi police were watching the two, and when they tried to approach them they shot two policemen and tried to escape the scene. The Iraqi police chased and captured them, to discover large amount of explosives planted in the car, which apparently was planned to be remotely detonated in the busy market of Basra. The SAS involvement in Iraq was discovered on the 30th of January 2005 when an RAF Hercules plane crashed near Baghdad killing then British servicemen after dropping off fifty SAS members north of Baghdad to fight Iraqi guerillas.
news . bbc . co . uk / 2 / hi / middle _ east / 424614 . stm
Mossad agents arrested by the PA for attempting to set up phony 'al Qaeda' cells in the Gaza Strip.
whatreallyhappened . com / IMAGES / palqaeda . jpg
"and I get the impression that neothe1 is still a stupid spammer who replies with SPAM because he can't argue with facts."
as i've already proven my point with facts and was replying to YOUR spamming, alll i can say to that is:
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{Also did you even read your sources before you posted them because they contradict eachother.T..
by Corrupt on Sun Sep 03, 06 7:03pm}
No they don't. Osama bin Laden already had kidney failure and needed regular dialysis. Of course, you aren't going to read the full articles.
Osama bin Laden died on the 16th December 2001, and this was reported throughout Asia and the Middle East about ten days later(on the 26th of December). Some members of his family attended his funeral in Afghanistan. He died from kidney failure and a lung infection.
You want to prove he's alive, then show us a LIVE interview with him.
and neothe1 proves once again that he can't win a debate, so he spams.
you'll note that i won the debate 3 hours ago.
I noticed that you lost it, and spamming the ballot proves it.
neothe1, you have NEVER any debate related to 9/11.
Not once.
You have managed to prove to everyone that you LIE REPEATEDLY, and that honesty is unknown concept to you. You've also managed to show that you are nothing more than a shill.
neothe1, you have NEVER won any debate related to 9/11.
Not once.
You have managed to prove to everyone that you LIE REPEATEDLY, and that honesty is unknown concept to you. You've also managed to show that you are nothing more than a shill.
** karma **
just give it up, ken, you can't protect them.
neothe... why do you insist on spamming ballots like this?
ask him.
neothe1 can't win debates that's why he spams.
He can't produce facts, so again he spams.
He can't argue rationally, so again he spams.
He doesn't care about the site rules, so again he spams.
He's an idiot, and spamming with nonsense and claiming victory that he doesn't have is the sort of childish immature idiocy we expect from him; apart from blatant lying.
already proven, slander won't change that. you can't protect them.
not to mention mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror mirror 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you can't protect them.
There goes neothe1 the lying shill again proving that he can't debate rationally, but prefers to spam
Lovelynice.
Alqeada is a fanatic islamist idealogy. It isn't a physical entity sitting in an office in Pakistan.
It's just an easy label, which most people with half a brain can see right through.
and the church would know this... how?
Re: the ballot.
And? It's one persons opinion.
...Perhaps he consulted Charlie Sheen?
{Alqeada is a fanatic islamist idealogy. It isn't a physical entity sitting in an office in Pakistan.
by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 3:59am}
I didn't say it was. Neither did anyone else. Is a strawman excuse your only counter to the evidence that Al Queda doesn't exist in actuality but is only a front name used by intelligence organisations for their own staged terror attacks used to frighten civilians and blame Arabs.
There's more than I posted. In New Zealand, an investigation into an "al Queda" set up discovered that all the phone calls were being made to Israel. A Mossad spy who ran a passport forgery ring was setting up al queda groups in South East Asia for the killing of Australian tourists and stealing of their passports and IDs. Australian police in Sydney, NSW found another fake terror cell that was really just a Mossad front as well.
Al Queda is fake.
The Bali bombings were blamed on a group supposedly connected to Al Queda, but it's since come out that the truth is that the Indonesian military organised the bombings. This was reported in "The Australian", a nation wide newspaper, and on SBS (a national government owned/run TV broadcast newtwork).
Al Queda is not what it's claimed to be. It's a "bogeyman" front name for staged terror attacks and "Blame muslim extremists" bullshit.
{ And? It's one persons opinion.
by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 4:21am}
An opinion shared by millions. David Ray Griffin did his research, and he makes a very convincing presentation according to those who have seen them. He offers no theories, he just points out the impossible anomalies. Impossibilities that you can't get around.
So Lovely Nice, are you trying to tell me that there is no such thing as islamist extremists, and that the london bombings, the Madrid bombings, the Bali bombing were all set up by western governments?
Are you trying to say the muslim extremists don't exist.?
Ever heard of any of these…
Abu Sayyaf, Jemaah Islamiyah, Aden-Abyan Islamic Army, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Ansar al-Islam, Asbat al-Ansar, Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad/Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Hizbul Mujahideen, Hofstad Network, Islamic Movement of Central Asia, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Jaish Ansar al-Sunna, Jemaah Islamiyah, Jihad Rite, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Maktab al-Khadamat, Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Muslim Brotherhood, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, Takfir wal-Hijra, Kurdish-Hizbullah.
These people have done nothing that warrant them being blamed, have they? Sarcasm off.
{So Lovely Nice, are you trying to tell me that there is no such thing as islamist extremists,? by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:00am}
No, but you're trying to pretend that I am, when you know that I'm talking about Al Queda.
Which I've already shown is too many times only a front name used by intelligence agencies for their own staged terror attacks
{that the london bombings, by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:00am}
The London bombings have so many problems with the official narrative that they don't work. For starters, time problems. It's been already shown as impossible for the alleged perpetrators to have met together, then arrived at the trains and the bus that they were claimed to have been on in the time available. Straight-out impossible in fact, simply due to London train time tables. It gets worse, when the photos show that the bombs exploded FROM UNDER the floors of the trains, not from backpacks.
{ the Madrid bombings, by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:00am}
Everyone in Spain already knows that the Madrid bombing on the train was suspicious. The explosives were American-made. The police setup some patsies and got caught out doing it as the story fell apart. It's still falling apart.
{the Bali bombing
by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:00am}
You must have some reading problems.
As I ALREADY STATED, the Bali Bombings were done under the direction of the Indonesian military. Since when did the Indonesian military count as being a western government?
This is well known now in Australia. It's in the mainstream media, and accepted as fact by everyone except John Howard (who doesn't want to offend the Indonesian government).
Apparently you want to play dumb.
Inside Indonesia's War on Terror
Truth about the Bali Bombings
October 14, 2005
SBS DATELINE - 2005-10-12
Police 'Had Role' In Bali blasts
The Australian
10-12-5
I can produce the full articles if you like, and the complete transcript of the SBS dateline special
One of the Indonesian generals boasted on TV that they were given $50 million dollars from the USA, in order to "fight terrorism". So, since they have very much terrorism, the cops and miltary created the "terrorism" themselves and pocketed the money.
One of the Indonesian generals boasted on TV that they were given $50 million dollars from the USA, in order to "fight terrorism". So, since they haven't very much terrorism, the cops and miltary created the "terrorism" themselves and pocketed the money.
LOL.
So your reasoning for the Madrid bombs bieng inflicted by the west is that "everybody in Spain" find it suspicious, and that they were American made explosives? Are you having a laugh, cause I certainly am.
What bull about the London train timetables. The group left Luton to get to London for the 9.00 am rush hour. I have friends in luton who do this trip every morning. Again, are you having a laugh?
As for the bombs bieng under the floor of the train - please enlighten me, how can you possible tell this from a few picture of a obliterated train carriage? Something all the independent train crash investigators seemed to have missed.
Where are your sources for all this rubbish?
"So, since they haven't very much terrorism"
Islamist terrorism and violence has been rapant in indonesia for years - please, do some research.
Please can you send me the link to that article.
You mentioned Jemaah Islamiyah
Do you know the real origins and history of that group? It seems that you don't.
Jemaah Islamiyah was created in 1978 by Brig Jenderal Ali Murtopo of Satuan Gagas Intelijen (KOPASSUS) to draw anti-Suharto types out of the shadows.
The TNI and POLRI involvement in terror has been around since before 1965 (check about so-called "communist coup" followed by the Suhartos bloodbath).
There were also suspicions about the Indonesian military's high level involvement in the 2002 Bali bombing published in The Jakarta Post back in January 2003.
The article was written by Robert Finnegan, Jakarta Post Editor. He didn't say it outright, but asked a lot of very good questions.
thetruthseeker . co . uk / print . asp ? ID = 424
{ Islamist terrorism and violence has been rapant in indonesia for years - please, do some research.
by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:59am}
Yes, a lot of government and military manufactured.
and you should do your own research instead of pretending that I haven't already DONE HEAPS of research on this very subject.
The Bali Bombing story was blown so wide in Australia, that EVERYONE knows about it. The only people pretending otherwise being the Australian government which always panders to the Indonesian government, even when Aussies get murdered. It's done this many times, even back in the days when East Timor was still part of Indonesia and 3 Australian journalists were murdered by the Indonesian military. Everyone KNEW, but the Australian government carried on in a wimpy fashion and pretended that it was all a mystery, when it wasn't.
The Indonesian police are widely considered in their own country to be entirely untrustworthy by the general public and the Indonesian news media.
They couldn't describe how the bombs were made, what explosives were used, what device was used to trigger them, or how the operation was planned. Yet, despite knowing nothing about the answers to any of these questions, the Indonesian police claim to have caught the bombers and the mastermind; supposed "bombers" who themselves can't answer of those questions. That fool Amarozi was used to make a video where he showed how the bombs were made, but as any one who knows anything about the materials that he was shown to be using in that re-enactment he did everything wrong. Experts even in Indonesia said he would've blown himself to pieces as soon as he tried to mix the powder. He knew nothing. He can't even describe how to make a simple bomb with gunpowder properly. He doesn't even know how to make a pipe bomb or any other kind of bomb.
If he doesn't know how it was done, and none of his "claimed" allies know how it was done, then it's pretty clear that he and they didn't do the bombing; they don't know how it was done. Keep that in mind. That's been clear since they were first brought out by the Indonesian police with the great fanfare of "We got the bombers". The Indonesian newspapers were suspicious immediately; Indonesians know how things really work in their country. Anyone who knows anything at all about Indonesia and the way things really work there would never trust the Indonesian police version of anything. They're corrupt. It's normal. It's part of the way things are.
{What bull about the London train timetables. by wolf_nipple_chips on Mon Sep 04, 06 6:58am}
It's not 'bull' it's FACT.
The timetables and simple fact of the time it takes to go from A to B, and the time to catch a different train show up the impossibilities.
If you want to argue this in detail, start another ballot. I've got so much data on this, you would think that it was a library.
"Jemaah Islamiyah was created in 1978 by Brig Jenderal Ali Murtopo of Satuan Gagas Intelijen (KOPASSUS) to draw anti-Suharto types out of the shadows."
Hey?
I'm supposed to be the one that doesn't know what he's talking about?
Jemaah Islamiyah has been around since the late sixties, started by Abu Bakar Bashir, and Abdullah Sungkar, who were dedicated to the establishment of islamic states throughout most of South East Asia - based around "Darul" islam.
By 1993 they were using violent methods to achieve their goals.
It is common knowledge that CIA backed Suharto encouraged islamist group to oppose the influence of communism, the CIA were doing this globally - but these group were already in existence.
Once the government had used them, most of them were arrested.
These factors play no part in the modern day Jemaah Islamiyah, or the modern day Indonesian government.
Were is the article from The Australian paper?
"The timetables and simple fact of the time it takes to go from A to B, and the time to catch a different train show up the impossibilities. "
TEns of thousands of people make that journey everyday.
Well I guess if the church says something then it must be true.
True, and don't forget what the the FBI stated -
FBI says, "No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11" 06 Jun 2006 "On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11.
The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said,
'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.'"
need i remind you that the discussion is over?
Police 'Had Role' In Bali blasts
The Australian
10-12-5
Indonesian police or military officers may have played a role in the 2002 Bali bombing, the country's former president, Abdurrahman Wahid has said.
In an interview with SBS's Dateline program to be aired tonight, on the third anniversary of the bombing that killed 202 people, Mr Wahid says he has grave concerns about links between Indonesian authorities and terrorist groups.
While he believed terrorists were involved in planting one of the Kuta night club bombs, the second, which destroyed Bali's Sari Club, had been organised by authorities.
Asked who he thought planted the second bomb, Mr Wahid said: "Maybe the police ... or the armed forces."
"The orders to do this or that came from within our armed forces, not from the fundamentalist people," he says.
The program also claims a key figure behind the formation of terror group Jemaah Islamiah was an Indonesian spy.
Former terrorist Umar Abduh, who is now a researcher and writer, told Dateline Indonesian authorities had a hand in many terror groups.
"There is not a single Islamic group either in the movement or the political groups that is not controlled by (Indonesian) intelligence," he said.
Abduh has written a book on Teungku Fauzi Hasbi, a key figure in Jemaah Islamiah (JI) who had close contact with JI operations chief Hambali and lived next door to Muslim cleric Abu Bakar Bashir.
He says Hasbi was a secret agent for Indonesia's military intelligence while at the same time a key player in creating JI.
Documents cited by SBS showed the Indonesian chief of military intelligence in 1990 authorised Hasbi to undertake a "special job".
A 1995 internal memo from the military intelligence headquarters in Jakarta included a request to use "Brother Fauzi Hasbi" to spy on Acehnese separatists in Indonesia, Malaysia and Sweden.
And a 2002 document assigned Hasbi the job of special agent for BIN, the Indonesian national intelligence agency.
Security analyst John Mempi told SBS that Hasbi, who was also known as Abu Jihad, had played a key role in JI in its early years.
"The first Jemaah Islamiah congress in Bogor was facilitated by Abu Jihad, after Abu Bakar Bashir returned from Malaysia," Mr Mempi said.
"We can see that Abu Jihad played an important role. He was later found to be an intelligence agent. So an intelligence agent has been facilitating the radical Islamic movement."
Hasbi was disembowelled in a mysterious murder in 2003 after he was exposed as a military agent and his son Lamkaruna Putra died in a plane crash last month.
Another convicted terrorist, Timsar Zubil, who set off three bombs in Sumatra in 1978, told the program intelligence agents had given his group a provocative name Komando Jihad and encouraged members to commit illegal acts.
"We may have deliberately been allowed to grow," he said.
Abduh also told the program his terrorist organisation, the Imron Movement, was incited to a range of violent action in the 1980s when the Indonesian military told the group that the assassination of several Muslim clerics was imminent.
Another terrorism expert, George Aditjondro, said a bombing in May this year that killed 23 people in the Christian village of Tentena, in central Sulawesi, had been organised by senior military and police officers.
"This is a strategy of depopulating an area and when an area has been depopulated both becoming refugees or becoming paramilitary fighters then that is the time when they can invest their money in major resource exploitation there," he said.
Inside Indonesia's War on Terror
Truth about the Bali Bombings
October 14, 2005
SBS DATELINE - 2005-10-12
SBS DATELINE Archives - October 12, 2005
Editor's note
We bring to the attention of our readers the transcript of an SBS Australia program,
The controversial report which includes extracts from an interview with the former President of Indonesia Abdurrahman Wahid, points to the involvement of the Indonesian Military Intelligence and Police in the 2002 Bali bombing.
We also refer our readers to a report first published in early 2003, which focusses on the ties between Indonesian Military Intelligence (BIN) and Jemaah Islamiah (JI), which is alleged to have masterminded both the October 2002 and October 2005 Bali bombings.
Inside Indonesia's War on Terror Today - as you would almost certainly know - is the third anniversary of the first Bali bombing and our major report tonight provides an alarming twist to the ongoing terror campaign being waged in Indonesia. David O'Shea, a long-time "Indonesia-watcher", reports that where terrorism is concerned in that country - with its culture of corruption within the military, the police, the intelligence services and politics itself - all is never quite what it seems. REPORTER: David O’Shea
When the second Bali bomb exploded, Australia once again found itself on the front line in the war on terror. But for Indonesians, this was simply the latest in a long line of atrocities. They have born the brunt of hundreds of attacks over the years, most of them unreported in the West. Once again Australia and Indonesia joined forces in the hunt for the Bali killers.
SUSILO BAMBANG YUDHOYONO, INDONEASIAN PREIDENT: We are determined to continuously fight terrorism in Indonesia with an effective global, regional and international cooperation.
JOHN HOWARD, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Tragic incidents such as this so far from driving apart the people of Australia and Indonesia would only bring us closer together.
This show of unity is impressive and it plays well to Australian audiences but many Indonesians don't see it that way.
JOHN MEMPI, SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (Translation): Why this endless violence? Why are there acts of terrorism year in, year out? Regimes change, governments change, but violence continues. Why? Because there is a sort of shadow state in this country. A state within a state ruling this country.
For seven years I've reported from every corner of this vast nation and seen first hand the havoc that terrorists wreak. Tonight I want to tell you a very different story about Indonesia's war on terror. It contains many disturbing allegations even from a former president.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID, FORMER INDONESIAN PRESIDENT: The Australians if they get the truth, I think it's a grave mistake.
REPORTER: What do you mean?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Yeah, who knows that the owners to do this, to do that -- orders to do this, to do that came from within our own forces, not from the culprits, from the fundamentalist people.
(1) TERRORISM - THE CASH COW:
Indonesia's police are doing very nicely, thank you very much, out of the war on terror. They now have all the latest equipment, courtesy of the millions of dollars pouring in from the West. The money ensures the world's most populous Muslim nation remains on side in the fight against terrorism. Mastering all of this new technology represents a steep learning curve for the Indonesian police. Unfortunately today they forget to set up the X-ray machine properly.
POLICE (Translation): Is the film in?
POLICE 2 (Translation): I haven't put it in yet.
Luckily there's an old print lying around from a previous exercise. Because of the war on terror, American and Australian support for the Indonesian police has never been stronger. During Dai Bachtiar's 5-year reign as police chief, Indonesia endured countless act of terror including three major ones - in Bali, then the Marriott Hotel and the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. These massive blasts might have forced the resignation of any other senior official but Dai Bachtiar managed to survive with the backing of powerful friends at home and abroad.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I met Paul Wolfowitz.
In Indonesia's parliament earlier this year, I found the police chief boasting about how he gets the star treatment when he visits Washington.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I went to Washington, to the White Hosue, to the West Wing. I spoke to Colin Powell in his office. I went to the Pentagon, I met the director of the CIA, the director of the FBI, I met them all.
Indonesia's police are in charge of the war on terror. Years of human rights abuse by the Indonesian military, or TNI, mean it's now out of favour in Washington, but it seems the police can do no wrong.
POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I asked Powell. "You say the TNI has to reform, don't the police have to as well?" Building trust takes time.
Many Indonesians would find the idea of trusting the police laughable. It has long been regarded as one of the most corrupt and incompetent institutions in the country. Former president, Abdurrahman Wahid sums up what many people here belief.
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: All of them are liars.
REPORTER: Just to be clear, you have your doubts about the police ability to investigate properly all of this?
ABDURRAHMAN WAHID: Oh, yes.
But none of this seems to worry Indonesia's allies in the war on terror.
POLICE (Translation): Have you just got back?
DAI-BACHTIAR, POLICE CHIEF (Translation): I see this man a lot.
POLICE (Translation): Were you in America? Did you get any more money?
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): 10 million. We get big bucks. We got 50 million all up. Sure. They keep asking about 88.
That's Detachment 88, the police counter-terror unit which receives a great deal of the international aid, including substantial assistance from Australia. Like the military, Detachment 88 is controversial. Its members stand accused of repeatedly using torture in interrogation of suspects. But these allegations don't seem to even raise an eyebrow.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): The Secretary-General of Interpol came to visit Aceh. I met him. He said our police were dealing with terrorism in a professional manner. 500 million euros. For the police. Long term. So far I've received directly 500 from Denmark. They gave 5, but 500 all up. The Dutch gave 2.
The money is flowing like water but outside the chamber, unrelated to the anti-terror funding, is a scene that should make donors think twice. A man from the Religious Affairs Commission sitting next door counts cash to be distributed amongst voting politicians. Call it corruption or even the trickle down effect, but it's this kind of informal funds distribution which keeps the wheels turning in the Indonesian economy.
DAI-BACHTIAR (Translation): Well now, for example, the other day I got 2 million from Holland... From America... it was 50. Is it 50 already? You know how much the army got? 600. Then they had to get involved.
With all the cash flowing about, some politicians want to stay as close as possible to Dai Bachtiar.
POLITICIAN (Translation): Isn't our police chief great? That's obvious.
With the cash cow growing fatter by the day, some analysts even suggest the police now have too much to gain from the war on terror.
JOHN MEMPI (Translation): But why is there always this worry about bombings? This subservience to foreigners, this paranoia about bombs. You must help us with money, with equipment and training, so that we can do something. We need funds to combat these terrorists. And to convince the foreigners bombings do happen. Indeed there are acts of terrorism in Indonesia but done by "terrorists" in inverted commas.
(2) A TERRORIST ON THE PAYROLL:
To most Australians terrorism in Indonesia means Jemaah Islamiah. Abu Bakar Bashir, Dr Azahari and Noordin Mohammed Top have become household names and we're led to believe they're the masterminds behind every atrocity. But there's another side to the JI story that Australia hasn't heard and it's part of the extraordinary family history of this man.
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): This is Tengku Fauzi Hasbi after he was released. He returned to working and supporting his family.
Lamkaruna Putra's father was an Acehnese separatist leader descended from a long line of Acehnese fighters. He went on to become a key figure in Jemaah Islamiah. Fauzi Hasbi who used the alias Abu Jihad was in contact with Osama bin Laden's deputy. He lived for many years in the house next door to Abu Bakar Bashir in Malaysia and was very close to JI operations chief Hambali. Umar Abduh is an Islamist convicted of terrorism and jailed for 10 years under the Suharto regime. He belonged to a group that attacked police stations and hijacked a Garuda flight to Bangkok. He remembers Fauzi Hasbi as a hardliner who traded arms was willing to commit acts of violence.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): Fauzi Hasbi is known in the Islamic movement as someone who, from the beginning, has supported the Jihad as the struggle of the Muslim people, aside from his background in the Free Ache Movement.
Fauzi Hasbi was so relaxed amongst the militants, and they with him, that he even took his son to a critical meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000 as JI was preparing for its violent campaign. The attendance list was a who's who of accused terrorists.
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): There was someone from MILF in Mindanao, his name was Ustad Abu Rela, commander of the Abu Sayyaf. Ustad Abdul Fatah from Patani was there. People from Sulawesi and West Java came to the meeting. The organisation was managed by Hambali. Rabitah means organisation. It linked Islamic organisations.
REPORTER (Translation): So Hambali was chairman?
LAMKARUNA PUTRA (Translation): Yes, Hambali chaired it.
Hambali and co would have known their colleague Fauzi Hasbi had been captured in 1978 by this Indonesian military special forces unit but they wouldn't have known that he became a secret agent for Indonesian military intelligence. The commanding officer that caught him was Syafrie Syamsuddin, now a general and one of Indonesia's key military intelligence figures. These documents obtained by Dateline prove beyond doubt that Fauzi Hasbi had a long association with the military. This 1990 document, signed by the chief of military intelligence in North Sumatra, authorised Fauzi Hasbi to undertake a special job. And this 1995 internal memo from military intelligence HQ in Jakarta was a request to use brother Fauzi Hasbi to spy on Acehnese separatist, not only in Indonesia but in Malaysia and Sweden. And then this document, from only three years ago, assigned him the job of special agent for BIN, the national intelligence agency. Security analyst John Mempi says Fauzi Hasbi alias Abu Jihad played a crucial role within JI in its early years.
JOHN MEMPI (Translation): The first Jemaah Islamiyah congress in Bogor was facilitated by Abu Jihad, after Abu Bakar Bashir returned from Malaysia. We can see that Abu Jihad played an important role, he was later found to be an intelligence agent. So an intelligence agent has been facilitating the radical Islamic movement.
The extraordinary story of Fauzi Hasbi raises many important questions about JI and the Indonesian authorities. Why didn't they smash the terror group in its infancy? Do they still have agents in the organisation? And what information, if any, have they had in advance about the recent deadly spate of terror attacks? The Indonesian intelligence chief refused Dateline's request for an interview and dead men tell no tales. The man who held all the secrets, Abu Jihad was disembowelled in a mysterious murder in early 2003, just after he was exposed as a military agent. His son, Lamkaruna Putra died in this plane crash last month.
(3) PROMOTING TERRORISM:
Fauzi Hasbi's death led to a flurry of speculation about shadowy intelligence links to Indonesia's terror networks.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): So there is not a single Islamic group, either in the movement or the political groups that is not controlled by Intel. Everyone does what they say.
Umar Abduh says his terrorist group was incited to violence after infiltrators showed a letter saying Muslim clerics would be assassinated.
UMAR ABDUH (Translation): There is a document stating that the Muslim leaders would be executed, we as a younger generation were immediately angered. Damn it, this is not right, we have to kill all those Cabinet members and military leaders, that was our plan.
And he's not the only one who says he was used by intelligence agents. Another convicted terrorist is Timsar Zubil who exploded three bombs in Sumatra in 1978. Although no-one was killed, he paid a heavy price.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): At first I was sentenced to death, it was changed to a life sentence, I served 22years.
Zubil now believes he was set up by former president Suharto's intelligence agency.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): We may have deliberately been allowed to grow in such a way, that we young people who were very emotional, were provoked into committing illegal acts.
REPORTER (Translation): Who let this happen?
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): The ones who had the authority to ban us, in this case the ones in power, the Suharto regime. I have only started thinking of this recently, but at the time I was active, I didn’t think it through.
After Zubil was captured, beaten and tortured, something remarkable occurred. The authorities made up a provocative name for his group - Komando Jihad.
TIMSAR ZUBIL (Translation): It hadn’t occurred to us to use that name, but they told us that was to be the name of our organisation. We had no plans to use the name Komando Jihad. They told us to just accept it for the time being and if we wanted to deny it later in court, that was up to us. But it made no difference to the court, they insisted that the name was indeed ours.
(4) STATE SPONSORED TERROR:
Indonesia's recent history of terrorist attacks began with a deadly campaign that unfolded on Christmas Eve 2000. Bombs exploded almost simultaneously at 18 sites, mostly churches, across six provinces, 19 people died and 120 were injured. Jemaah Islamiah took the blame. It was the first real mention of the group in Australia. But Indonesians had another theory - they suspected the military, the only organisation with the capacity to pull off an operation of this scale, a full two years before the first Bali bomb. The respected news magazine Tempo even splashed the allegation on its front cover as part of a special investigation. The most revealing information in the report related to the bomber's network operating in Medan, North Sumatra. The man convicted of making the bombs in Medan is somewhere behind these prison walls. Our repeated requests to interview Edi Sugiarto over many months have been ignored by the Indonesian authorities. Guilty or not, reputable sources claim he was so severely tortured before his trial he would have admitted to anything. But it's clear he wasn't acting alone. The Tempo investigation included telephone records revealing sensational information of direct links between the bombers and military intelligence. The records also show that Fauzi Hasbi, the military intelligence agent in Jemaah Islamiah who we mentioned earlier, was at the centre of the plot. He had spoken to Edi Sugiarto, the bomb maker, seven times and had also called a businessman well connected with the military 35 times. That businessman in turn rang a Kopassus special forces intelligence officer 15 times and the officer had called the businessman 56 times. With Edi Sugiarto in jail, all further investigation ceased and five years on, sources in Medan are too afraid to talk. The trail has gone stone cold.
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