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COMMENTS:
To stop a fire from spreading. However, the impact of a plane is going to shake much of that fireproofing off.
Exactly Fiddle. And of course the engineers also know that is what happened.
The historical facts and records regarding the fireproofing of the WTC:
"Several materials were considered for the sprayed thermal insulation. The exterior columns required insulation not only for fire protection but also to control column temperatures under service conditions. Alcoa recommended for the exterior columns the use of a sprayed material produced by U.S. Mineral Products, Co. known as BLAZE-SHIELD Type D. The same material was eventually selected for the floor trusses and core beams and columns. This product, however, contained asbestos fibers. On April 13, 1970, New York City issued restrictions on the application of sprayed thermal insulation containing asbestos. The use of BLAZE-SHIELD Type D was discontinued in 1970 at the 38th floor of WTC 1. The asbestos-containing material was subsequently encapsulated with a sprayed material that provided a hard coating. A green dye was added to the encapsulating material so that the asbestos containing SFRM could be identified. Thermal protection of the remaining floors of WTC 1 and all of WTC 2 was carried out using BLAZE-SHIELD Type DC/F, a product that contained mineral wool (glassy fibers) in place of the crystalline asbestos fibers. On the basis of tests, it was reported that the thermal properties of BLAZE-SHIELD Type DC/F were equal to or "slightly better" than those of BLAZE-SHIELD Type D"
THE MELTING STEEL FALLACY.
The conspiracy theorists like to use deception to play mind games in order to project seemingly plausable arguments. One such use of their deception is to supplant an idea (a false one) that will allow them to present what appears to be a valid trumping argument for their camp.
One such fallacy is their "melting steel" theory. Claiming that the steel supports and columns of the WTC could never have collapsed because steel does not melt until it reaches a temperature of about 1650 degrees celcuis. Funny thing is, nobody is even claiming the steel melted in the first place. You see how these dishonest conspiracy theorist work?
Here is just a few examples I took from one ballot - #93275
"The "fire melted the steel" claim was first being pushed as an excuse by apologists for the official story on the day of the attack. It was quickly discredited by people in the 9-11 Truth Movement who pointed out (despite the constant lying of the apologists) that jet fuel doesn't burn anywhere near hot enough to melt steel."
by DeReverend on Sat Apr 29, 06 6:19pm
"Melting point of Steel is 1650 degrees Celcius."
by blackcat06 on Sat May 06, 06 8:35pm
"You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vaporising a 70 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter."
by Ken_from_Dublin on Mon Jun 19, 06 5:56pm
"Try it yourself with your own experiment... build a thermocouple or use a
heat measuring instrument to measure open-air flame temperatures in still air.
Even after an hour of exposure to constant flames, it is IMPOSSIBLE for those WTC steel support structures to weaken, simply because the flames could not
get hot enough to reach 1093C! The actual melting point for steel is about 1650 degrees C."
by blackcat06 on Tue Jun 06, 06 9:31pm
And don't forget, that there was asbestos fireproofing to insulate the steel beams from the flames. But we were told "the crash of the jets miraculously shook that all away!" ... thus allowing all the flames to MELT the steel brackets that supported the floors, thus leading to a pancaking effect! Go on! Try it! Try to melt a piece of steel using as much petrol as you like (without using a fan, pump or blower to increase the availability of oxygen)... Try it!
by blackcat06 on Fri Apr 28, 06 9:55pm
As you can clearly see, these people try to deceive the gullible reader by promoting these fallacy arguments as valid points, thus trying to make themselves look smart when actually they are the complete opposite, and are just sneeks and advocates of BS.
"Pity WTC 7's demolition can't be explained away the same way isn't it?"
Vote choice by Ken from Dublin Submitted on : Sep 14,2006 1:40:18 pm
Ken, the very same explaination is even more applicable tp WTC 7.
Seven World Trade Center was the last building erected in the original World Trade Center complex, and was the last to collapse on September 11, 2001, after burning for SEVEN HOURS, after having tons of steel, cement and other debris crash into it from towers 1 & 2. Equally devastaing, if not more so, than having a plane crash into it.
Seven hours of heat Ken. Aside from not having access to any water, the firefighters could not battle the raging blaze in WTC 7 because of the great disaster which had just unfolded, not to mention that hundreds of NYFD had just perished along with 2700 other humans.
Oh, and ken, did you know that 7 World Trade Center has been rebuilt? Its now 52 stories and replaces the 47 story WTC 7 that collapsed in the afternoon of September 11, 2001 due to extreme damage and heat upon its structure.
Thus fire proofing was one of the first considerations in offering increased building safety requirements for the new 7 WTC. Monokote fire proofing from Grace Construction Products was selected to protect the entire building's structural steel from failure in the event of fire. The new fire proofing product is a medium density, portland cement based fireproofing product, offering better protection than typical standard density, gypsum based fireproofing.
"We specified Grace's Monokote Z106/HY fireproofing for several reasons," said Jack Klein, vice president of construction for Silverstein Properties. "It is possibly the best fireproofing product available on the market. The product is more controllable on installation, offers greater adhesion and consistency and cleans up better than any other fireproofing material." According to the New York City building code, all steel buildings must be fireproofed.
Spray applied fireproofing, as used on the original WTC buildings, is only effective when it remains on the steel structure to which it is applied. This new product has superior bond strength (the measure of the force required to separate the fireproofing material from the steel).
I'll bet the jews . . . I mean zionists put it there for some evil conspiracy related reason.
{THE MELTING STEEL FALLACY.
by Jinn_the_Kafir on Thu Sep 14, 06 3:33pm}
Is a complete and utter STRAWMAN ARGUMENT because IT WAS NOT 9/11 sceptics who said the buildings collapsed due to melting steel, it was the OPPOSITE - we all said that the "melting steel" excuse which was FIRST made to support the OFFICIAL LIES was a total pile of BULLSHIT.
{Seven World Trade Center was the last building erected in the original World Trade Center complex, and was the last to collapse on September 11, 2001, after burning for SEVEN HOURS, after having tons of steel, cement and other debris crash into it from towers 1 & 2. by Jinn_the_Kafir on Thu Sep 14, 06 4:11pm}
There was also NO INFERNO in WTC 7, but just some MINOR fires. Not serious at all, and the damage was MINOR in comparison to the size of the building.
WTC 6 had FAR MORE DAMAGE, and other WTC buildings had far worse fires than WTC 1, 2, & 7.
This is what dutch demolition expert Jowenko said when he was asked to study the WTC 7 collapse;
"This is controlled demolition"
youtube . com / watch ? v = Uqrn5x2 _ f6Q
Larry Silverstein, ADMITTED on Public Broadcast Television that explosives were used to demolish WTC building #7
Yes, Silverstein, who had conveniently insured these buildings (which had been ordered to be dismantled due to safety hazards) for billions of dollars just weeks before 911, said on public television:
"(The Fire Department) were not sure that they were gonna be able to contain the fire. I said, you know, we´ve had such terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. They made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse"
In the demolition industry, “pull” is the common term they use for demolishing buildings with carefully positioned explosives, an operation that can take seasoned professionals weeks to plan.
So even the building owner admits that explosives were used to demolish at least one of the three WTC buildings!
And if planning to demolish WTC 7 had been carefully prepared for weeks, why not the other two?
{"The "fire melted the steel" claim was first being pushed as an excuse by apologists for the official story on the day of the attack. It was quickly discredited by people in the 9-11 Truth Movement who pointed out (despite the constant lying of the apologists) that jet fuel doesn't burn anywhere near hot enough to melt steel."
by DeReverend on Sat Apr 29, 06 6:19pm}
Funny how Jinn ignores the truth of this statement.
The "fire melts steel" bullshit excuse was first being pushed by IDIOT shills like you, Jinn.
It's a fact that NOBODY has ever successfully simulated the collapses of WTC 1, 2, & 7 without considering controlled demolition, and that means NOBODY. Not NIST, not, NOVA, Dr Eagar, FEMA, MIT, Bazant & Zhou, nor Dr Frank Green, nor anyone else. NOBODY has succeeded; those who have claimed to have done so, have ALWAYS been proven to be LIARS when their mathematical formula were checked.
It's a FACT, that there was NO INFERNO in either of the WTC twin towers. The temperatures of the fires never went above 360C, and apparently were around 250C, which is well below the 550C at which steel only barely begins to lose it's elasticity. Glass melts at 700C - There are no reports of melting glass at the towers, and the glass in the storeys above the fire didn't seem to break so the temperature was clearly way below 700C. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC - Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. Kevin Ryan of UL had cited a similar figure (250C).
It's a FACT that there were hundeds of witnesses to explosions at the WTC buildings, and that their claims are supported by video evidence showing lines of explosions blowing out the floors before the falling debris could reach those floors, and there's seismic data showing impossibly short tremors revealing the use of explosives in those controlled demolitions.
and Jinn, Mr Fiddle, and the rest of you shill nitwits and LIARS, the other big reason for your excuses NOT WORKING AT ALL (apart from the fact that Larry Silverstein, ADMITTED on Public Broadcast Television that WTC was "pulled" - demolished in a controlled demolition) is that you've have the ABSURD idea that assymetric damage is going to somehow MIRACULOUSLY lead to symetric collapse.
So it really doesn't matter about SOME fireproofing behind knocked off, because that means ONLY SOME steel beams would be heated, and NOT ALL the steel beams. Trying to claim that ALL the steel beams failed ALL AT THE SAME TIME when only SOME were damaged, and only SOME were exposed to fire, and those fires were NOT infernos, is just a fairytale pile of BS.
{Choice :
To stop steel from catching fire
This BALLOT CHOICE created by : Jinn_the_Kafir
Submitted on : Sep 14,2006 1:22:07 pm}
Jinn, can you give a single of example of a building fire where the the STEEL CAUGHT FIRE???
You are such a ridiculous liar.
^^Sorry, I have made no such a comment.
You are simply lying as usual.
Here it is again then;
{Choice :
To stop steel from catching fire
This BALLOT CHOICE created by : Jinn_the_Kafir
Submitted on : Sep 14,2006 1:22:07 pm}
so, have you seen a lot of steel catching fire, Jinn?
 .
The biggest factor in the collapse of the WTC building WTC 1, 2, & 7 were the controlled demolitions which took them down.
Far worse than any fires.
No steel-framed tower buildings have EVER collapsed due to fire, not even once.
I noticed you have not answered the simple ballot question. Not once. Why?
Lovelynice. Not so confident with your silly arguments I see. Must be quite panicky and threatened with this ballot for you to spam so many votes. You are more a loser with each and every vote. If your version of the truth was so convincing why spam your favorite vote choice? Yes, lies thrive when the truth is supressed.
I noticed you have not answered the simple ballot question. Not once ever. Why?
{I noticed you have not answered the simple ballot question. Not once ever. Why?
by Jinn_the_Kafir on Sat Sep 16, 06 12:01am}
Only in your own deluded imagination.
see this post;
and Jinn, Mr Fiddle, and the rest of you shill nitwits and LIARS, the other big reason for your excuses NOT WORKING AT ALL (apart from the fact that Larry Silverstein, ADMITTED on Public Broadcast Television that WTC was "pulled" - demolished in a controlled demolition) is that you've have the ABSURD idea that assymetric damage is going to somehow MIRACULOUSLY lead to symetric collapse.
So it really doesn't matter about SOME fireproofing behind knocked off, because that means ONLY SOME steel beams would be heated, and NOT ALL the steel beams. Trying to claim that ALL the steel beams failed ALL AT THE SAME TIME when only SOME were damaged, and only SOME were exposed to fire, and those fires were NOT infernos, is just a fairytale pile of BS.
by Lovelynice on Thu Sep 14, 06 9:38pm
That was my answer to the ballot question that you were trying to imply. Afterall, the only reason you created this ballot was to push more of your official fairytales and lies.
and Jinn, pretending that I've runaway when I have simply gone off line because I'M NOT A PAID SHILL LIKE YOU AND I HAVE A REAL LIFE is not going to get you anywhere. NEWSFLASH, Jinn, I live in a differrent timezone, like most people on this big spinning ball. We don't all live in the same timezone as you.
Jinn, can you cite any STEEL-FRAMED hi-rise buildings that collapsed due to fire?
YOU CAN'T.
Once more again I ask, and for the third time. I noticed you have not answered the simple ballot question. Not once ever. Why?
Just had a failed karma block blitz attempt from Jinn the loser! HA HA HA!
38277
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:21pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894888 @ Bestandworst.com.
NONSENSE -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2375.63037
38273
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:20pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894705 @ Bestandworst.com.
SABOTAGE -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2376.88037
38271
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:19pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894705 @ Bestandworst.com.
NONVALID -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2378.13037
38269
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:18pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894705 @ Bestandworst.com.
NONVALID -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2379.38037
38265
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:16pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894888 @ Bestandworst.com.
NONVALID -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2380.63037
38263
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:16pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894888 @ Bestandworst.com.
SABOTAGE -
4.42781 -5 4.42781/2381.88037
38257
Appeal Tue Sep 19, 06 4:12pm Received karma rating of : -5 from Jinn_the_Kafir
For the ballot choice #894888 @ Bestandworst.com.
OFFENSIVE -
The truth hurts his feelings! LOL!
Voted : Pity WTC 7's demolition can't be explained away the same way isn't it? (o:
^^^ That was one of the choices he tried to censor with four -5 rate downs in quick succession the sneaky book burning fascist.
Yes, to this day, there are people so frightened of the notion of a holy war, a Jihad, against the West, that they cannot bring themselves to accept the fact that it was Muslims who hijacked four commercial airliner jets, flying two of them into the Twin Towers and one into the Pentagon in 2001. Instead, they embrace ludicrous conspiracy theories that the Bush administration did it.
Many years from now, history will record how these people propagated a lie that only served to prolong the terrorist acts of Islamists. Thus causing more death and destruction to innocent humans, by fostering denial and division among the free people of the civilized world. The cowardly behavior of the "conspiracy theorists" makes them equally as dangerous to world peace as are the Islamists. They too are enemies to humanity.
Many years from now, history will LIE that only served to prolong the terrorist acts of NEOCONS and Hate-Mongering Maniacs working for the greater glory of Israel and PNAC to the detriment of the USA. Those shills who continued defending this LIE served the interests of mass murdering sociopaths who thought that they were superior to the rest of humanity and that their blind idealism was like a religion to them. Thus they ere the CAUSE and often the PERPETRATORS of more death and destruction to innocent humans in any nation that got in their way and happened to be sitting upon a big percentage of the World Oil Supply. The cowardly behavior of the "official Arabs Did It conspiracy theorists" makes them equally as dangerous to world peace as are any actions of the USA's lunatics in PNAC, anti-semitic Arab-hating Israelis, and the neocon idealists who cared not a damn about how many Arab children died from cluster bombs dropped all over southern Lebanon. THEY ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES TO HUMANITY, and a danger even to themselves in their blind arrogance and hubris.
Many years from now, history will record about the LIE that only served to prolong the terrorist acts of NEOCONS and Hate-Mongering Maniacs working for the greater glory of Israel and PNAC to the detriment of the USA. Those shills who continued defending this LIE served the interests of mass murdering sociopaths who thought that they were superior to the rest of humanity and that their blind idealism was like a religion to them. Thus they ere the CAUSE and often the PERPETRATORS of more death and destruction to innocent humans in any nation that got in their way and happened to be sitting upon a big percentage of the World Oil Supply. The cowardly behavior of the "official Arabs Did It conspiracy theorists" makes them equally as dangerous to world peace as are any actions of the USA's lunatics in PNAC, anti-semitic Arab-hating Israelis, and the neocon idealists who cared not a damn about how many Arab children died from cluster bombs dropped all over southern Lebanon. THEY ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES TO HUMANITY, and a danger even to themselves in their blind arrogance and hubris.
38570 Wed Sep 20, 06 3:04pm Sent karma rating of : 0 by Ken from Dublin to
Jinn_the_Kafir
For the Ballot comment#1072684 @ Bestandworst.com.
- You really stooped to a new lowly level of cowardly denial with that Karma/censorship failure, censorship is the true enemy of free speech and the friend of the morally corrupt fascist and the intellectually bankrupt.
(deliberate neutral karma rating by the way, not a mistake, I did that for reasons you wouldn't be capable of understanding)
No no no no no no no no no no Jinn you just dont see the truth that the steel frame of the WTC was coated with parspdene coating developed by German Nazi scientists at the NSA in the 1960s to make the WTC burn down more quickly. See! I just proved that they were planning all this in the 1960s.
Everyone knows that steel melts at 2400 of your human degrees and that the anti coolant in the engines of the planes (if they WERE planes) would have reduced the temperatures from the "fires" (if there was indeed a fire) to a quite pleasant level. I mean WHY DIDNT THE GLASS MELT? Does anyone know? I dont but I do know I can come up with 5 questions for every one of your "scientific" "reality based" "answers".
More and more people KNOW ******* KNOW I tell you that it was an inside job. We are so sure we have gone beyond reason and evidence to a whole new paradigm. The paradigm of proof through questions alone. No answers of any kind are required, just constant speculation and I know all this because I am as mad as a loon and bark like dog.
Jinn and the not-a-soldier, why is that you continue to ignore the obvious?
The idea that assymetric damage is going to somehow MIRACULOUSLY lead to symetric collapse is ABSURD.
So it really doesn't matter about SOME fireproofing behind knocked off, because that means ONLY SOME steel beams would be heated, and NOT ALL the steel beams. Trying to claim that ALL the steel beams failed ALL AT THE SAME TIME when only SOME were damaged, and only SOME were exposed to fire, and those fires were NOT infernos, is just a fairytale pile of BS
The 9/11 tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists have never ever once presented conclusive proof, physical evidence, credible documentation, valid photos, reliable witnesses or scientifically corroborated testaments to back their ridiculous claims that the government of the United States of America orchestrated the terrorist attacks. Never have, never will.
However, it's fun reading their silly comments, angry insults and cursing.
Voted : To prevent buildings from collapsing due to large uncontrolable fires
Lovelynice sure doesn't seem to be very lovely or nice :/ ... especially towards the overwhelmingly decided and simple truth. Jets go boom into buildings, fireproofing goes shatter, fire goes burn, building goes down. Anything else is pure speculation and conspiracy hogwash.
No reason to even argue with whackjobs like this Jinn, unless you want a laugh or two.
what 3 steel structured bulding came down on the same day, the first ones in history and yet many of these type of building have had large fires before.
i'll tell you whats going down and thats Bush is going down
{Lovelynice sure doesn't seem to
by Mrtoady on Tue Oct 10, 06 1:39pm}
Ah, MrToady, so why can't you cite a single example of a steel-framed hi-rise building collapsing STRAIGHT DOWN into it's own footprint without a controlled demolition? Yet we're expect to believe the miracle occurred THREE TIMES ON ONE DAY!
IT'S A FACT
It is a FACT that it's impossible to make cellphone calls from passenger planes flying at cruising altitude six miles up and flying at over 450mph without an onboard cellular basestation (technology which wasn't available prior to 2004 and is still in testing stage), and it's a FACT that cellphone calls from a vehicle moving at over 450mph (even if successfully make the handshake when flying at low altitude) will only last a few seconds since there is no time for the hand-off; the call will ALWAYS drop out in just a few seconds - minutes long cellphone calls are IMPOSSIBLE.
It's a FACT before and after Sept 11 2001 that no steel-framed hi-rise or tower-style buildings have ever collapsed straightdown at close to freefall speed into their own footprint - except with controlled demolitions, and that it is IMPOSSIBLE without a controlled demolition according to the laws of PHYSICS.
It's a fact that NOBODY has ever successfully simulated the collapses of WTC 1, 2, & 7 without considering controlled demolition, and that means NOBODY. Not NIST, not, NOVA, Dr Eagar, FEMA, MIT, Bazant & Zhou, nor Dr Frank Green, nor anyone else. NOBODY has succeeded; those who have claimed to have done so, have ALWAYS been proven to be LIARS when their mathematical formula were checked.
It's a FACT, that there was NO INFERNO in either of the WTC twin towers. The temperatures of the fires never went above 360C, and apparently were around 250C, which is well below the 550C at which steel only barely begins to lose it's elasticity. Glass melts at 700C - There are no reports of melting glass at the towers, and the glass in the storeys above the fire didn't seem to break so the temperature was clearly way below 700C. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC - Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. Kevin Ryan of UL had cited a similar figure (250C).
It's a FACT that there were hundeds of witnesses to explosions at the WTC buildings, and that their claims are supported by video evidence showing lines of explosions blowing out the floors before the falling debris could reach those floors, and there's seismic data showing impossibly short tremors revealing the use of explosives in those controlled demolitions.
Until you idiots can cite a link, source, and quote from SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, whose mathematical simulation or computer simulation based on the EMPIRICAL DATA (without distortion, deviation, or bullshit fictions) PROVES that there was enough energy for a gravity-driven collapse, YOU HAVE NOTHING!
Usually having a successful mathematical model that matches an event is considered vital in modern physics, and engineering in particular.
In the case of the WTC 1, 2, & 7 destructions, it's been considered VITAL that they be provable as gravity-driven collapses. If they can't be modelled as such, then the only rational reasonable conclusion is that they were controlled demolitions. The reason is simple; EVERY OTHER OCCASSION both before and since Sept 11 2001, when STEEL-FRAMED tower buildings collapsed down at near free fall speed into their footprint, it has been due to a controlled demolition. To make the claim that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 & 7 were not also controlled demolitions then it requires a successful mathematical simulation or computer simulation based on the EMPIRICAL DATA (without distortion, deviation, or bullshit fictions) that can PROVE that there was enough energy for a gravity-driven collapse
{what 3 steel structured bulding came down on the same day, the first ones in history and yet many of these type of building have had large fires before.
i'll tell you whats going down and thats Bush is going down
by Guest User on Tue Oct 17, 06 12:51am}
EXACTLY. and the trolls working in the coverup like Jinn and MrToady are going to be finding life very difficult on the run.
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