COMMENTS:
Sorry about the bad grammar.
A lot of people that practise Islam want to inflict it on the rest of the world and destroy people's freedom & democracy aswell as it's festivals that does not measure up with it such as Christmas, also because of the way the Arabs treat women, (beating them & forcing them to cover up their faces).
Voted : There is nothing wrong with it
No more so than any other organized religion. Smooth, I can make the same point about Catholicism.
In terms of inflicting it on the rest of the world and destroying people's freedom and democracy.
Ask a Catholic if he can vote for a pro-choice candidate without fear of some form of reprisal from within the Church.
For starters, the intolerance preached by many of its adherents. Worshipping Allah and being a pious person is not wrong. Treating women as chattel is. I have no problem with someone practicing their religion if it does not require to violation of another person's rights. Unfortunately, a small minority of Muslims are actively engaged in violating the rights of others.
^I agree with that.
I find it's more about a few clerics with a grudge on the west and just use their religious status to affect world affairs.
Voted : There is nothing wrong with it
Nothing is wrong with Islam. Most Muslims are good, hard-working, and caring people. Like the rest of religion two percent of the people cause 98 percent of the problems.
As I understand it, there are two sides to Islam, the pacifist side and the jihad side. The rest is interpretation. I think many muslims have the same problems westerners had in the past with intolerence. Also, we're not perfect yet.
Voted : There is nothing wrong with it
Nothing is fundamentally "wrong" with Islam, assuming you don't reject all religion off the bat. Islam itself serves some as an easy explanation of the radical, violent behavior we are witnessing by a very small percentage of its adherents, like thc and margaret mentioned. Even if you only want to view the religious angle of the entire situation, it would be much more accurate to blame an extreme mis/interpretation of the religion, instead of the religion itself.
Unfortunately, it's natural to attribute (morally reprehensible) behavior to some inner, or intrinsic fault while ignoring external influences.
Voted : What is to like about it? Please explain that.
Islam is a cult of hate.
I would not say anything about Islam if it were not true, nor if I could not back it up with facts. I will gladly debate any Islamic scholar to prove my point, and I will not lose. Why? Not because I am smart, but because I have read and studied Quran and Hadith. I child could do this. If you say Islam is good, then you simply have not read the Quran.
The ancient Chinese sage Sun Zi said, "Know your enemy and you won't be defeated". Do we know our enemy? If we don't, then we are doomed.
In order for you to appreciate the "evilness" of Islam, I will provide a few verses of the Quran, however the words non-Muslims will be switched with the word "Muslims". Then we will see how they look.
We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8:12
Let not the non-Muslims take for friends or helpers the Muslims. 3:28
Rouse the non-Muslims to the fight against Muslims. 8:65
Then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them. 9:5
Fight the Muslims, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. 9:14
O ye the non-Muslims take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Islam. 9:23
O ye the non-Muslims! Truly the Muslims are unclean. 9:28
O ye non-Muslims! fight the Muslims who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you. 9:123
Therefore, when ye meet the Muslims, smite at their necks; At length. 47:4
Can these "satanic" verses be from any God?
Voted : There is nothing wrong with it
^ The Christian bible has verses that are just about as bad. The difference is that most Christians realize that this is the 21st century and those are largely outdated rules. Just like most Muslims realize it's the 21st centruy. No religion is innocent of things like this. Even paganism, the father of all the new age religions, has it's dark history.
The problem is not with Islam, it's with the extremists within it. As with any religion, you'll always have a few who will take every letter in it literally without thinking that those books were written centuries ago with an entirely different mindset and social organization than what we have today. Basic morals and ethics of a religious book can be followed without taking every word of it literally.
With all due respect Grumpy, please show me all the Bible verses that say kill the people of other faiths?
I have said time and time again, that you cannot look at the Quran and Islam like you would Christianity. Christianity is a book of guidance. Quran is a complete set of fear inspired rules for every moment of everyday living. A Mulsim must devote every aspect of their life to the rules of Muhammad. They must pray five times a day to Allah. Christianity is faith, belief, love and respect for god. Islam is total submission of one's life and soul to the ideas of a dictator bedouin thief, rapist, terorrist and madman.
It is complete brainwashing from birth. The quran says to kill those that try to reject it. Apostasy in Islam is death.
If Quran say kill others, then the problem is in Quran period. There is no reformation in Islam.
Grumpy_Person i could not have said that better myself.
It's Sun Tzu.
I never said Islam is good, it is as bad as any other religion.
Yes the quotes you give are true but like grumpy_person said they are from the middle ages where you can say "death to all non-worshipers" and things like that would be completely acceptable at that time. Christianity had a very violent beginning for example and is the most violent and war like religion on the planet.
Islam itself is not to blame, only the tiny minority who take it too serious. I know muslims that follow the Qur'an by the letter and yet they aren't straping bombs to themselves, they are nice, peaceful, loving people.
It is good of you to give us these quotes but it is not enough to prove yourself right. Give me some historic evidence of conflicts caused by muslims and in the name of Islam to back you up not just quotes from the qur'an.
Spartan. The very principle and ideology of Islam is to advance itself by way of violence. That is how Islam spread throughout history, from the time of Muhammad's own raids and attacks on the unbelievers that would not submit. The whole history of Islam has been violence for over 1400 years. What do you think the Pope was talking about? Islam spread itself by the sword, not peace and love. You will not find a single act of love toward non-Muslims in the entire Quran. Go ahead, look for yourself.
Sure Christianity has been involved with violence, war and conflict, and I don't care for Christianity either. I totally reject it. However, can you tell me what wars and conflicts involving Christians are based on what the Bible teaches? Just because Christians have been involved in violence, that doesn't mean they were following the teachings of the Bible. In fact, they were doing what they did in spite of what the Bible says, not because of what it says. In contrast to this, A Muslim killing an infidel (unbeliver) is just being a good Muslim to his faith and his Allah. In fact, he will be rewarded for such a deed.
Muhammad had no respect for any other beliefs, and he had no tolerance for anyone that would not believe his claims he communicated with god.
If you believe people's beliefs should be respected, please tell me how you justify Muhammad's bursting into Kaba and destroying the idols of the people who believed in them? Muhammad not only insulted the unbelievers and their sacred beliefs, he assaulted them, killed them and forced his version of the truth on them.
Therefore Muhammad had teachings like this:
Q.9:123 Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.
Q.9:5 Slay the idolaters wherever you find them.
Q.9:29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day..and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior.
Q.3:85 Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers.
Q.5:11 And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"
Q.9:28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikun (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year.
Q.2:193 Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah.
Q.22:19 As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.
Q.9:23 O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
Q.25:52 So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavor.
Q.66:9O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
Q.47:4 When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.
Q.3:28 Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to fear) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
So just were do you think the Islamic terrorists are getting their inspiration, from watching too much television?
The hate of non-Muslims is taught to Muslims from birth. At home. In the schools, and at the mosque, all thanks to a liar and a charlatan called Muhammad.
It's just a stupid religion, like all of them.
It's no different to how christianity was a few centuries ago (witch trials, crusades, etc.), which is no surprise since Islam is most widespread in the developing world.
And anyone that's prepared to base their life on some garbled nonsense that ostensibly happened thousands of years ago and was "documented" during the Dark Ages is a very, very stupid person indeed.
And some people in the West have clearly been sucking *far* too hard on the propaganda tit... hence the knee-jerk anti-Islam hatemongering and rabid "they're-all-the-same" blather - an attitude which, comically, is precisely what they're criticising in Islamic fundamentalists.
However, can you tell me what wars and conflicts involving Christians are based on what the Bible teaches?
by Jinn_the_Kafir
The Inquisition for one. More than likely inspired by such verses as:
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Though the word "witch" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for "poisoner", those verses alone costed thousands their lives during the Inquisition alone.
grumpy... those verses referred to the Israelites only. An with your convenient selective quoting, you miss the part where courts are set up to prevent the death penalty from being used. A death penalty case meant that there had to be 2 witnesses, both under penalty of death themselves if they lied, at least one of the witnessed had to warn the person that they were to commit a crime, AND the entire court had to agree on the penalty. There were only 71 people on the court.
You are plain and simply engaging in moral relativism by saying one is as bad as the other. It appears you know little of either one.
What about the Crusades to capture the holy land and kill INFIDEL muslims living there.
The British Empire tried to purge Islam out of the middle east.
The Inquistion who kill all non believers.
The Knights Templar who's sole purpose was to kill all muslims in the holy land.
The KKK.
All most all wars in history have been caused by nations of christian faith.
i'm kinda mixed up about this; on the one hand, i think it needs change, on the other hand, a lot of qu'aranic verses can be interpreted how you want. Besides, some muslims would argue taht certain texts were only for wartime.
by aya on Sun Oct 08, 06 9:55am
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Spartan, the Crusades have nothing to do with Bible teachings. In fact, the Crusades was simply the reconquering of lands taken by brutal Islamic expansionism. Islamic armies swept across Europe during the reign of the Ottoman empire, whose soul purpose was tp spread Islam by force, just as Muhammad had instructed. They reached as far as Spain. Anyone that would not "submit" to Islam was either tortured or killed. How do you think the "white" Muslims came to be in the Balkans?
The inqusition had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings in the Bible. It was simply a case of Christians doing bad things, acting against the tenets of their doctrine. Out of the entire Bible Grumpy has only quoted a mere two ambiguous Old Testsament verses, which in HIS opinion inspired the entire Inquistion. And he even suggests they were misunderstood verses.
In contrast the Quran is clear and percise. For example, Quran verse 5:51 says. "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."
Not much room for missinterpretation in that surah (teaching), is there?
The KKK , the Knights Templar. Sorry, but there is no justification for their behavior found in the Bible. Again, they act in spite of what the Bible teaches, not because of it. There was never any reformnation of Bible teachings, because it was not necessary. Christian people reformed themslves as the began to understand the world better, and fear the unknown less. However, the teachings in the Quran cannot ever be changed or reformed. As long as the Doctrine of Islam exists, there will never ever been peace with Muslims. Never.
They aggressively push their beliefs on others, they commit genocide in the name of their god, they treat women, homosexuals, non-muslims, et al like animals, and beat or kill them as they please, predominately muslim nations have a terrible track record on human rights and freedom, and oh yeah, no significant amount of practitioners have come out in opposition to terrorism, not in the numbers that have come out to support it.
To be acceptable Islam must either reform or die off, and as of 10/8/06 they have done neither.
..those verses referred to the Israelites only. An with your convenient selective quoting, you miss the part where courts are set up to prevent the death penalty from being used...
You are plain and simply engaging in moral relativism by saying one is as bad as the other. It appears you know little of either one.
by Fiddle'
Apologies from me given, but I know a pretty good bit about both of them. Regardless of what the Bible really says and means, my point is that there are those who will pick out particular verses and use them for their own means. Every religion does it. Like you said, those verses refered to the Israelites. But it didn't keep early Catholics and other Christians from using them to acheive their goal. The same thing is done with the verses Jinn posted.
Out of the entire Bible Grumpy has only quoted a mere two ambiguous Old Testsament verses, which in HIS opinion inspired the entire Inquistion. And he even suggests they were misunderstood verses.
by Jinn'
I posted only two because they were a good example for starters. I know people even today that will cite those same verses, out of context yes, to justify their condemnation for those that don't believe as they do.
I don't hate or despise any religions, I don't hold any one religion higher than the other. Which is one reason why I didnt post more verses, out of respect. But I stand by my point that I made in my first post, in that it's not the religions that are at fault.
ballot 101498
"Permission (to fight) is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and GOD is certainly able to support them. They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is GOD." If it were not for GOD's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids - where the name of GOD is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, GOD supports those who support Him. GOD is Powerful, Almighty."
"You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice. If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."
"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."
"......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."
"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."
"I know people even today that will cite those same verses, out of context yes, to justify their condemnation for those that don't believe as they do."
By GrumpyPerson
Which is exactly why the doctrines (religions) have to go. The entire Quran is the word of god (Allah). Allah is supposed to be infallible, perfect, without error.
Is it a good thing to be able to interpret a book of guidance that claims to be from God in different ways? Ask yourself this. What is the purpose of a book of guidance? Is it not to guide people definitely and without being equivocal? Divine books are supposed to be road maps for humanity. They must show followers the way and be consistent. If a map shows that your destination is to the right, and to the left, to the north and to the south and to all directions, then such a map is of no use to anyone. Its misguiding and it is pointless. The reason we consult a map is to get the clear idea of which route to take. If we had to interpret it according to our own understanding, the map has failed to do what it purports. It is useless.
If a pious person can lead a pious life and will see the good things in Quran, while a terrorist can also find justification of his killings in that holy book, then that religion and its doctrine has a serious flaw via contradiction. You cannot blame the one who follows. It is the book (religious doctrine) of guidance that is the problem.
The quran itself, by god's own words repeatedly claims to be a "clear book" (5:15) "easy to understand" (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) "explained in detail" (6:114), "conveyed clearly", (5:16, 10:15) and with "no doubt" in it (2:1). If the Quran cannot be understood and is not clear then god himself was a complete moron, and thus his "false" religion should be totally rejected by all. The terrorists kill because of quran, because they are inspired by the quran, because of what the quran teaches them, therefore the quran is the problem, not the terrorists.
hadiths and sunna are not a part of quran.
And the terrorists are not a few. They are doing nothing that their so-called prophet did not do himself. You are naive if you believe otherwise. The TRUE Muslims who exemplify Muhammad ARE the ones the apologists and the media like to give colorful names to, like "radical" and "militant". Those words can be best used as substitutions for the word "Islam" itself. The Taliban are true Muslims. The Ayatollah and the Mullahs of Iran are the true Muslims. Hezbollah, Hamas, Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad are all true Muslims. Bin Laden can be considered the truest and most faithful Muslim to his beloved prophet Muhammad. Bin Laden exemplifies the life of Muhammad perfectly.
True, in a large number of eyes, they are true Muslims because they take every word in their holy book to heart. The liberal Muslims, much of the time, are the one's looked upon as radicals because they don't condone the violence. That's very true, as I've personally seen that happen myself. I know people afraid to go to Mosque for that very same reason. It's also sad because these are people, that like I mentioned earlier, know that we live in a different time now and under different rules of society. They accept that and realize that although certain tenants of their religion may be outdated, the basic good priniples can still apply. I myself certainly wouldnt call them bad Muslims, although some Mullahs probably would. And it's the same with Christianity. There's verses in the Bible that say you shouldnt associate with hethens for instance. But does that make the priest who has Buddhist friends a bad Christian?
I don't think religion needs to be abolished. It does a great deal of good for many a person. I'm all for freedome of belief, provided that the belief doesnt harm anyone. It just needs to be rewritten to fit modern times and standards, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that I dont think. Not a thing wrong with admitting that some things of the past are better left in the past. That's how people and organizations grow and strengthen for the better. Even Jesus abolished some of the Old Testament laws because he knew they werent necesary to being on God's right hand.
I would like to believe that Islam could reform, but I'm a realist.
It's going to be extremely difficult to reform/change the Quran. This when leaving Islam (apostasy) is punishable by death. This is why you rarely hear about Muslims leaving or converting from Islam. Hardly could anyone have confidence that Muslims would even consider the quran being changed or edited, when we know Mulsims around the world go bezerk over silly cartoons depicting Muhammad, or when the pope quotes historical texts. Islam now has a strong foothold in the west. Instead of assimilating, they are trying to ram Sharia law down our throats. When Islam in the west is criticised, Muslims take to the streets in protest. When innocent "infidels" are slaughtered by Islamic terrorists the silence from Mulsims is deafening. Are people in the west to believe Muslims have much concern and love for infidels in the west, the people the quran calls "najis" (filthy)?
Good thing the infidel people of the west are finally awakening from their stupor, because it is THEY that will eventually decide what to do with Islam, not the Muslims.
i told you to do some research, bigot. the practices of al-quaeda, the saudis, and the taliban are all 100% contradictory to the actual teachings inthe quran. your refusal to acknowledge this does not change it.
I think it could reform, but it's not going to happen any time soon. Especially since it's relatively new as far as major religions go. Only a little over 1,500 years old.
There's been the occasional Mullah to call for reform and peace, but they go largely unheard because too much attention is focused elsewhere. And too many I believe are afraid to agree with them.
Not all of the Muslims rioted over the Danish cartoons. And not all rioted over the Pope's recent remarks. A great many thought those things were wrong, yes. And I understand their perspective. But a great many also merely sat there in silent, personal disagreement without using it as an excuse to bomb churches and innocent civilians over it. Which is a start, albeit a small one.
It will reform eventually I think, but things will get much worse before they'll get better I'm afraid. That's what it's going to take for it to reform. It hasnt quite reached it's boiling point yet. And it's followers are no different than the followers of any other religon. Dogma doesnt discriminate. They're human just like everyone else and will realize that when it reaches that boiling point, they can risk losing the whole pot or they can sacrifice a burnt hand to take the lid off.
For once i agree with you Jinn. Islam is indeed a strict Religion and we in the west are too afraid to do anything about it because of political correctness.
The crusades were holy wars against muslims in the name of god and were sanctioned by the pope of the time himself. There were a total of nine holy crusades agianst Islam between 1095 - 1272.
"The Crusades were a series of military campaigns conducted in the name of Christendom and usually sanctioned by the Pope. They were of a religious character, combining pilgrimage with militarism."
The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Knights Templar) The Templars were an unusual order in that they were both monks and soldiers, making them in effect some of the earliest "warrior monks". They lived and preyed at chapels and were alway acompanied by Chaplains, they were "holy warriors".
You could read up on Salidin if you like.
I agree that Islam is being very pushy of late and i know it isn't innocent but it is wrong to say there is nothing to like about it and it's a religion fueled by hate. Islam hasn't done enough to be called such things.
Muslims lived in Spain long before the Ottoman Empire, infact, the Spanish tried on quite a few occasions to purge the Muslim population in Spain and Aragonese.
do some research for once in your life.
Who me?
jinn. every time i mention those quran verses in a ballot, he never posts there again.
Grumpy. Should the world have pushed for reforms in Nazism? Can we look for liberalism in the Nazi doctrine? The ideologies are set in stone. The Nazi doctrine is the Nazi doctrine, just as the Islamic doctrine is the the Islamic doctrine. It is built on a specifically designed ideology put forth by god, that makes it what it is. You can't change this so-called god's doctrine and his ideology. What are you going to do, say god is lying, or that he made a big boo boo?
Spartan. If you are going to spend your time looking up history, why not also learn about how Islam was, and is spread by the sword as Muhammad instructed. The Crusades was the reconquering of territory take by Islam. But the Pope did more than sanction the crusades, he called for them, he ordered them. The Christian world was ruled by the Popes. The Pope (and his council) was the supreme ruler, even over Kings and Queens. However the power of the Church was currupt, not the Bible. Christian Crusaders were led by currupt minds and currupt power in the church. They did what the Pontiff ordered, not what their Doctrine tought. Most people at that time were illiterate. They didn't carry around Bibles like many today think. In fact, there were no Bibles, no means of mass printing at the time. However, once people could learn to read, and had access to their own Bible, only then did the faithful begin to understand Christianity...and reject the Catholic Church.
Eventually Kings rejected the Pope and the Catholic church. The King James Bible was produced, and the Protestants were formed after rejecting the currupt Catholic church. But at no time was the Bible changed nor reformed. It didn't need it.
And what difference does it make what Christians did hundreds of years ago? I don't get your reasoning. Are you trying to say that Islamic terrorism should be accepted? Because of the behavior of Christians from centuries long passed? That this should somehow mitigate the brutal acts of Muslims today? 9/11, London, Bali, Beslan, the Taliban, al-quada, Hezbollah, Hamas... Is there a competition on religious brutality going on that I wasn't aware of?
Are we to stand up to Islamic terrorism and fight against it, its roots, Islam's beliefs and teachings that Jews and Christians are "filth", "dogs" and worse than "pigs", or are we to tolerate this because of the violent ancient past of Christianity? I certainly hope not! Instead of comparing "religions", the people of the world including the Muslisms need to come their senses and realize that Islam is NOT a religion.
People need to shed their skins. People need to get out their caves and realize that Islam is not a religion, nor a religion from any god. It is a false religion. It is a cult of hate and violence, not peace, love and foregiveness. Allah is not a merciful god, he is a brutal murdering dictator, just like Hitler. Hitler promoted a superior race. Muhammad, god's false prophet, promoted a superior belief.
At best Islam is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism disguised as religion. Islam has divided the world into two camps that teaches Muslims that they are superior and nonMuslims should be killed or ruled over. There is no tolerence of other faiths in Islam, ever! Did you know that "Peace" in Islam is only achieved when Allah and his Islam rule the world. That is what Muslims mean when they say Islam is a "religion of peace". Or why the Mullahs in Iran say they are developing nuclear technology for "peaceful purposes". They are telling the truth but are deceiving the world. When have you ever heard Iran clearly say they are NOT making nuclear bombs? Never! They never use those words.
quran itself contradicts everything you say.
islam does not need any reform, it is no worse than any other religion. in fact, out of all theist religions, it has the best moral teachings.
you are getting your information from books that are not part of quran, and people who are not islamic.
hitler proclaimed himself to be catholic, yet he preached a perversion of everything the bible teaches. you would not say he represents christianity. why is it different with bin laden?
video. google. com/ videoplay? docid= 42227914 80425043 142&q= islam+ empire+ of+ faith
video. google. com/ videoplay? docid= 7502243 539190 558658&q= islam+ empire+ of+ faith
video. google. com/ videoplay? docid= 941442 0427036 7302&q= islam+ empire+ of+ faith
you will not watch this film. you fear it. you fear it will prove you wrong. you fear it might make you doubt what you WANT to believe. you will hide from it. you will continue believing what you long ago decided to, to hell with facts. that is bigotry and cowardice.
you say:
"Are we to stand up to Islamic terrorism and fight against it, its roots, Islam's beliefs and teachings that Jews and Christians are "filth", "dogs" and worse than "pigs"..."
quran says:
62 & 5 "Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
do you see the problem here?
113-114. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate. They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.
159 Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.
46 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
47 The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.
199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.
57 O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.
8 GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
9 GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.
do. some. research.
whoops, the bracket things around the verse numbers messed up...
nothing i've said will effect you in any way. you will not give it a first thought, much less a second. you do not question, there is no doubt in your mind. this is a matter of faith. you BELIEVE in what you're saying. but you do not THINK it's true.
Grumpy. Should the world have pushed for reforms in Nazism? Can we look for liberalism in the Nazi doctrine? The ideologies are set in stone. The Nazi doctrine is the Nazi doctrine, just as the Islamic doctrine is the the Islamic doctrine. It is built on a specifically designed ideology put forth by god, that makes it what it is. You can't change this so-called god's doctrine and his ideology. What are you going to do, say god is lying, or that he made a big boo boo?
by Jinn'
The Nazi party still exists. Albeit as uninfluential as they once were. Their members preach and spew hatred, but at least they don't act on it. They've learned that it does nothing but turn people off of their ideas.
As for changing doctrine of other faiths, you dont have to literally rewrite the Bible or any other holy book. Look at all the churches now who actually allow woman ministers. Look at the ones who allow gay marriage. Look at the ones who dont promote Baptism anymore as the only way to get into Heaven. They did all of this and more without re-writing any Bible.
and yes, i will continue to taunt you until you accept the facts that have been put before you.
Grumpy, fortunately the Nazists do not have 1.6 billion folowers. And virtually everyone is against them. They aren't going anywhere. Its merely a club for pricks to spout off, not a credible or wanted political party.
Your comments on Christianity support MY point. We have nothing to fear. Nothing to worry about from Christianity's doctrine. Never was.
By the way what are you trying to say, that Islam is a respectable peaceful and harmless religion? You're not an apologist for Islamic terrorists are you? Do you support what quran teaches?
No. My point remains the same as the one I made in my initial post.
If I said that Islam is peaceful, I would be generalizing. Just as if I would be generalizing if I said it was evil. I dont judge a whole group on the actions of even the majority of it's followers. I may be wrong for doing so, but I look at those followers individually. Because although they may all belong to the same religion, each individual is just that, an indivdual and is worthy of being looked at as such and not lumped in with the whole. The same goes for members of any religion, race, creed, or ideology.
"Islam began in Arabia in the 7th century under the leadership of Muhammad, who spread Islam across all of Arabia. Within a century of his death, an Islamic state stretched from the Atlantic ocean in the west to central Asia in the east, which, however, was soon torn by civil wars (fitnas). After this, there would always be rival dynasties claiming the caliphate, or leadership of the Muslim world, and many Islamic states or empires offering only token obedience to an increasingly powerless caliph."
Nonetheless, the later empires of the Abbasid caliphs and the Seljuk Turks were among the largest and most powerful in the world. After the disastrous defeat of the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, Christian Europe launched a series of Crusades and for a time captured Jerusalem. Saladin, however, recaptured Palestine and defeated the Shiite Fatimids."
"From the 14th to the 17th centuries, one of the most important Muslim territories was the Mali Empire, whose capital was Timbuktu."
"In the 18th century, there were three great Muslim empires: the Ottoman in Turkey, the Middle East, and the Mediterranean; the Safavid in Iran; and the Mogul in India. By the 19th century, these realms had fallen under the sway of European political and economic power, due to European industrialism and colonialism. Following WWI, the remnants of the Ottoman empire were parceled out as European protectorates or spheres of influence. Islam and Islamic political power have revived in the 20th century. However, the relationship between the West and the Islamic world remains uneasy."
Christianity also spread through conquest so there's not much difference between them.
The bible was written roughly 400AD and was rewritten time and time again by the popes over the centurys, the Qur'an however hasn't changed at all since it was written until recently. The video i sent you showed that qur'anic verses have been altered.
We have only had violence from Islam for about 10 years, it is far to early to say they are like the Nazis.
There are movements in Islam that want reform, there are liberal movements in Islam. Most recently Islam has changed to Fundamentalism from Liberal.
there is no fundamentalist islam. the amish are fundamentalists. the saudis, the taliban, and al-quaeda are extremists. they are not islamic, they simply use part of it to justify their bigotry. just like jinn.
Thats kinda what i meant.
he's ignoring me, pretending i'm not here, because i've defeated him.
Voted : What is to like about it? Please explain that.
Yes, Spartan, history recounts a time when Christians fought in wars, even "holy wars". But you have conveniently omitted the continual wars caused by Islam. And yes, the Bible contains stories of acts of violence, some even commited by Moses or Joshua. Most religions have violence in their annals, and even though not all of the religions call for the killing the unbelievers like Islam does, they are all the cause of so much disunity and bloodshed among humankind. I of course don't support any one of them as I am not a religious person.
However, people must not tolerate violence in one religion simply because other religions also had violent histories. Are you trying to justify Islamic terrorism? Are you an apologist for violence of Muslims? Where is the logic in that? Two wrongs do not make one right, and such reasoning is called tu quoque, meaning it is not a valid arguement. I cannot even comprehend what you are thinking or arguing about. Its as if you are promoting a competition between the followers of different religions, like they should be vying with each other in bigotry, fundamentalism and superiority. But actually, without realizing, what you really are doing is digging deeper into the ignorance of religion period. If they are all as bad as you think, why follow any one of them? If they all are the cause of violence and killing, then shouldn't they all be ridiculed, mocked and banned? Its silly nonsense thinking to lend support and apologism to one religion's violence because others behave had the same. Funny thing, I have heard both devout Muslims and Christians speak this way too. Muslims when faced with the dismal status of women in their religion, console themselves with the fact that other religions also have discriminatory teachings about women, and Christians will take comfort in the fact that woman in Islam are nothing but man's property. This is Absurd! Instead of seeing the blatant inhuman errors in each of their own doctrines, they will make themselves feel better by dissing the other religions. Religion sure makes people stupid, doesn't it?
However, other religions are not the standard. We need to compare the teachings of these various religions to see how they conform to modern humanistic concepts such as equality and unity among all humankind. Because civilisation cannot be in competition with each other over religion. Should religionsts be struggling to win at any sacrifice and at any cost? If so, to win what? Winning the championship that establishes top barbarities? There is absolutley nothing to to win. It is all a loss. This is nothing but a backward race to complete failure. The truth is, the winner is really the one that gets out of this mad race the soonest. As I have done.
So if I think Christianity and Judaism are as illogical as Islam, you may be wondering why I am so much against Islam? The reason I focus mostly on Islam is because both Christianity and Judaism have been exposed and demystified long ago already, and by many scholars that were born within Judaism and Christianity. I also know both these religions are on the decline, and they will die off on their own without my help. But most important of all, I don't have any business criticizing these religions, unless of course they become a danger to me, or a threat my family and friends or my community. Besides no is going to pay attention anyway. Apart from that, unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism represent no threat to the peace and security of the world. Islam on the other hand, is a constant menace to world peace and to the Muslims themselves, who of course are capable to sacrifice their own lives in order to kill the "enemies" of Islam. You would have to be an complete naive fool to not know the level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than the average Christians or Jews.
Where are the Christian suicide bombers boarding buses to evicerate themselves, yelling "Jesus is great" just before the push the button? Where are the Jewish hijackers with boxcutters, ready to carryout suicide missions for thr reward of reaching heaven? When was the last time you heard of an Agnostic or Atheist terrorist planting a bomb outside a discotech, just so he could blast to smitherines the kids inside, simply because they didn't follow their non-beliefs? Do people of the Jewish faith capture non-Jews, tie them up, then recite Old Testament scripture just before they saw the head off their non-jew hostage while he is still alive, and video record the whole thing like a sick snuff film? And no, Muslims don't do these things as political acts. They do it for Muslims, for Muhammad, for Allah, who all know that non-Muslims are filthy, dirty, evil pigs and dogs, just as quran teaches. This is pure cultish hate. Take the London bombings. Since when did the deliberate and planned murder of fellow citizens become a legitimate expression of ones political beliefs?
Do you want to sit back and accept or justify such acts because Christians where once violent centuries ago? Do you honestly believe this is a political act? Those British terrorists were Muslims. Not Jews, not Christians, not Athiests. They were Muslims targeting innocent humans, infidels. Many, many British citizens are against the policies of Blair and his government. Why is it that they are not blowing themselves up on trains and buses too? Mulsims know why. Because Muslims are part of the Ummah. They are in the Muslim "brotherhood" community of Islam. Mulsims believe they are superior to all non-Muslims. To them infidels (unbelivers) are less than human. Infidels cannot meddle with anything Islamic. If they do, they will pay the price, Allah willing. Infidels cannot criticise Islam. Infidels cannot mock Islam. Infidels cannot draw cartoon pics of Muhammad. Infidels cannot be in Muslim lands. Islam and Allah are to dominate the world. Islam must dominate infidels with threats, fear and intimidation and when necessary toture and murder. This is how infidels are to be subdued. This is what the Quran teaches. Try reading it sometime. Hardly can anything be more damaging to Islam that what is already written in the Quran. It is not at all like the Bible. You cannot look at Islam the way you do Christianity. True Muslims are mindless zombie robots to their faith. They are completely controlled by a madman that lived over a thousand years ago. They pray when they awake, they pray before sleep. They must pray to Allah five times a day. No. There is no other religion quite like Islam. Not even close.
"We have only had violence from Islam for about 10 years..."
by spartan001 on Tue Oct 10, 06 1:10am
My oh my! I don't even know were to begin. Just how old are you?
"it is far to early to say they are like the Nazis."
by spartan001 on Tue Oct 10, 06 1:10am
The biggest historical mistake ever made was with the world believing Hitler and the Nazis were harmless. Historians have said that if the politcians of the day would have read a translation of Hitler's Mien Kampf sooner, then WWII could have been averted. Mien Kampf was the doctrine of Nazism.
"Where are the Christian suicide bombers boarding buses to evicerate themselves, yelling "Jesus is great" just before the push the button?"
oklahoma city?
you're resorting to ad infinitum, bigot. you've lost the argument, you've been proven wrong. i've proven that the practices of the saudis, the taliban, and al-quaeda are even more contradictory to the teachings of islam than the practices of the nazis, the kkk, and the republican party are to christianity.
"what you really are doing is digging deeper into the ignorance of religion period."
"My oh my! I don't even know were to begin. Just how old are you?"
"You would have to be an complete naive fool to not know the level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than the average Christians or Jews."
Jinn if you want to get personal about this then i'm more than willing, you have insulted me several times in that comment, bigot.
How many muslims have you met or known i wander? I have college friends that are muslim, i have family friends that are muslim and they don't strap bombs to themselves, i can were the cross in front of them and they don't attempt to kill me or insult me, i can walk through a destrict which is muslim and i dont get rediculed or beaten up for being a christian. The muslims i know and met are kind people. Face it Jinn your a bigot and you base your comments on a book thats almost 1500 years old, try meeting some muslims and understand them. I don't justify terrorism and how dare you accuse me of it, jinn, but i also don't accept blind hatred for someting you don't fully understand, you go by what you read in the papers, what you see on TV but you don't bother trying to understand the people. You learn far more by that than reading a book or watching the news.
"My oh my! I don't even know were to begin. Just how old are you?"
you still have not previded me any evidence of religious conflicts over the last century.
"He concluded that there was a racial, religious, and cultural hierarchy, and he placed "Aryans" at the top as the ultimate superior race, while Jews and "Gypsies" were people at the bottom."
Hey that must mean that Hitler started a religious war against Jews, fancy that, a religious war caused by christians that cost the lives of 6,000,000 Jews plus another 57,000,000 souls, some how Islam pales in comparasen a bit.
"Christianity and Judaism represent no threat to the peace and security of the world."
HAHAHAHA! your fucking kidding right? how the hell do you think it has spread so far, through conquest and wiping out other faiths, why do you think a faith like Buddism is such a minority compared to Christainity and Islam.
Oh and Islamism is a political ideology, look it up.
You are judging 1,500,000,000 people because of a few radicles.
Christianity was the same 1000 years ago but it has changed, Islam is still living in the middle ages and that ideology clashes with ours.
You cannot judge a religion just by reading a book, you have to meet the followers to get a better insite into the faith.
I just want to know, where you are from jinn?
To me you are no better than the Islamic radicles Jinn, showing blind hatred for something you don't understand.
Islamism went through its major political and philosophical developments in the early part of the twentieth century, but it was not until the 1980s that it became active in an international arena and rose to great prominence in the 1990s.
The reasons for the rise of Islamism during this period are still unknown. The ideologies that had dominated the Middle East since decolonization such as Ba'athism, Arab Socialism, and Arab Nationalism had, by 1980, failed to attain the economic and political goals expected of them. By the late 1980s the distinct Shi'ite version of political Islam had been drained of its vigour in the Iran-Iraq War. During the conflict against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, many Islamists came together to fight what they saw as an atheist invading force and were heavily funded by the United States. In Pakistan, military dictators brought into power through coups exploited Islamist sentiments to consolidate their power, bringing Islamist political parties into prominence and all but destroying the traditional secularism that stemmed from the secular stance of the Muslim League and its leader Mohammad Ali Jinnah, founder of Pakistan.
In his book Jihad: The Trail of Political Islam Gilles Kepel argues that the central importance of Islamism in the 1990s was a product of the Gulf War. Prior to 1990 organized political Islam had been mostly associated with Saudi Arabia, a nation founded on Wahhabism and an ally of Islamist groups in Egypt and in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia, as a close ally of the West and with a strong interest in regional stability, played an important restraining role on Islamist groups.
The Shi'ite clerics in Iran had long argued that Saudi Arabia was an apostate state, a puppet of the West that espoused a corrupted Islam. During the 1980s these accusations had little effect, largely because of their Shi'ite origin. However, Kepel argues that when Saddam Hussein turned on his former allies, he embraced this rhetoric, arguing that Saudi Arabia had betrayed its duty to protect the holiest sites of Islam. Kepel states that Saddam Hussein embraced Islamic rhetoric and trappings and tried to draw leading scholars and activists to his camp. Some of the main Islamist groups remained loyal to Saudi Arabia, but a number such as parts of the Muslim Brotherhood and Afghani mujahideen aligned themselves with Saddam. Far more groups declared themselves neutral in the struggle.
According to Kepel the rapid defeat of Saddam did not end this rift. As Saddam had likely predicted Saudi Arabia had found itself in a severe dilemma, the only way to counter the Iraqi threat was to seek help from the west, which would immediately confirm the Iraqi allegations of Saudi Arabia being a friend to the west. To ensure the regime's survival Saudi Arabia accepted a massive western presence in the country and de facto cooperation with Israel causing great offence to many in Islamist circles.
After the war Saudi Arabia launched a two-pronged strategy to restore its security and leadership in Islamist circles. Those Islamist groups who refused to return under the Saudi umbrella were persecuted and any Islamists who had criticized Saudi regime were arrested or forced into exile, with most going to London. At the same time Saudi oil money began to flow freely to those Islamist groups who continued to work with the kingdom. Islamist madrassas around the world saw their funding greatly increased. More covertly Saudi money began to fund more violent Islamist groups in areas such as Bosnia and the former Soviet Union. Saudi Arabia's western allies mostly looked the other way seeing the survival of their crucial ally as more important than the problem of more money and resources flowing to Islamist groups.
In the 1990s Islamist conflicts erupted around the world in areas such as Algeria, the Palestinian territories, Sudan, and Nigeria. In 1995 a series of terrorist attacks were launched against France. The most important development was the rise to power of the Taliban in Afghanistan in 1996. In the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan a number of anti-Saudi and anti-Western Islamist groups found refuge. Significantly, Osama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi influenced by Wahhabism and the writings of Sayed Qutb, joined forces with the Egyptian Islamic Jihad under Ayman al-Zawahiri to form what is now called al-Qaeda.
A considerable effort has been made to fight Western targets, especially the United States. The United States in particular was made a subject of Islamist ire because of its support for Israel, its presence on Saudi Arabian soil, what Islamists regard as its aggression against Muslims in Iraq, and its support of the regimes Islamists oppose. In addition some Islamists have concentrated their activity against Israel, and nearly all Islamists view Israel with hostility. Osama bin Laden, at least, believes that this is of necessity due to historical conflict between Muslims and Jews, and considers there to be a Jewish/American alliance against Islam.
There is some debate as to how influential Islamist movements remain. Some scholars assert that Islamism is a fringe movement that is dying, following the clear failures of Islamist regimes like the regime in Sudan, the Wahhabist Saudi regime and the Deobandi Taliban to improve the lot of Muslims. However, others (e.g. Ahmed Rashid) feel that the Islamists still command considerable support and cite the fact that Islamists in Pakistan and Egypt regularly poll 10 to 30 percent in electoral polls which many believe are rigged against them.
An alternative direction has been taken by many Islamists in Turkey, where the Islamist movement split into reformist and traditionalist wings in 2001. The reformists formed the moderate Islamist Justice and Development Party (Ak Party), which gained an overall majority in the Turkish parliament in 2002, and has sought to balance Islamic values with the requirements of a secular and democratic political system. Some in the Justice and Development Party see the Christian Democrat parties of Western Europe as a model, which has led some to question whether it is a genuinely Islamist movement.
Al-Qaeda members, from Bin Laden's group, hijacked airplanes and flew them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon on 9/11.
So don't say i don't know anything, bigot.
I think the grammar and spelling is all correct.
"Jinn if you want to get personal about this then i'm more than willing, you have insulted me several times in that comment, bigot."
by Spartan
No that was not my intention at all. You took them personally. That's not my problem. On the other hand, you have resorted to ad homiem in calling me a bigot to support your weak arguments.
You said Islam has only been a problem to the west for "10 years". With a false belief like that one can only assume you are young, and not obviously not aware of all the acts of Islamic terrorism and violence against the west prior to 10 years ago. Thus I asked your age in order to clarify. You obviously misinterpreted.
And yes, it should be clearly obvious to any rational thinking human that fanaticism in followers of Islam is far greater than any other belief. This is a proven fact every day. I was speaking in third person, not directly to YOU. Using "you" was for all and any humans of this planet. Just like "we" must do something about terrorism is not a comment to just yourself and myself. The "we" is everyone. Please don't let your emotions obscure your comprehension. Calling me a bigot hardly gives your opinions credibility. Tolerance is a virtue.
I'll be back.
you've already lost, bigot.
spartan, would you mind reposting my posts, to prove he's conciously ignoring me?
No, your comment was directed towards me so there for those insults were also directed towards me. Not once did you mention anyone else or speak in 3rd person like you claimed you have.
I am not getting emotional about this subject but i have a few Muslim friends and it annoys me to see you tar them with the same brush. What you are doing is targeting Islam as a whole, incuding all the followers when you should be hating the radicals in the religion not the innocent.
My age is not your concern. I'll just say i'm not as young as you think i am.
My arguements can't be that weak if you have yet to give me a straight answer. I am probably wrong but what i think i see you do is twist and turn in the breeze, i.e you only see what you want to see and read what you want to read but when someone brings up a valid point that you can't answer, you avoid it completely. I have seen neothe1 bring up points about your comments on other ballots and you don't return to the again because it is something you can't argue against.
I have asked you to name me a religious fuelled conflict by Islam in the last 50 years about 4 times now and you haven't answered.
You obviously have knowledge on Islam but yours comes from reading books and watching TV whilst my knowledge of the religion comes from knowing the people and attending their prayers at the mosque, not to pray but for the experience and to see the workings of a different faith and culture.
^That was directed at Jinn.
I know he's ignoring you Neo, like i said you have brought up a valid point and he can't find a suitable come back, so he avoids it. He'd make a good politician  .
maybe he already is.....
i just want to see him ignore that argument, no matter who posts it.
but he already knows he's a bigot, he's admitted it. observe:
img. photobucket. com/ albums/ v705/ neomp5/ coward-1 .jpg
img. photobucket. com/ albums/ v705/ neomp5/ coward .jpg
Voted : What is to like about it? Please explain that.
Spartan, so you claim you have been in a mosque. Good for you. I'm happy for you. What's stopping you from becoming a Muslim? Tell me, in the mosque, where were the women praying? And tell me, how you were able to get into the mosque during prayer time? I would like to hear this.
"I have asked you to name me a religious fuelled conflict by Islam in the last 50 years about 4 times now and you haven't answered."
by spartan.
Yes Spartan, I can do this. This is not even a difficult task. In fact it is too easy. The compilation will likely make your head spin. But I have also seen you ask this question on another ballot, but instead you asked me to tell you what Islamic religious wars were there throughout the entire history of Islam. Also too easy. But what is the point of me doing this?
What if I do supply you with all the numerous examples you ask of me. Use my time to do this. Post it all for you to see. Then what? What are you going to say? Why not just save me a lot of waisted time and give me your answer now? Because I do not believe for one second that it would impress you or sway you or change your point of view. Not one iota. So why not just give me a your reply now?
Spartan, please give me all your future replies on ballot 101360, provided it doesn't matter to you where you post. And be please be patient with my replies, as I am currently involved in a few busy things. My time is presently limited to visiting this site.
The women pray separatly from the men either occupying the rows behind the men or a separate aisle all together which runs down the central area that leads up to the pulpit.
Non-muslims are allowed in mosques during prayer you know, they don't try to shoot me or blow me up. As long as i stick to their laws and rules and don't interupt their prayers then my or any other non-muslim presents in the mosque is accepted.
I will not be a muslim, i like to learn about and experience other cultures and faiths.
I know the examples you will bring up. I am not interested or talking about little border skirmishes with Jews because every faith has fought that sort of war and there has been a jihad/Milhemt Mitzvah confict been going on for sometime. Give me something big, the sort of war that you see reported on the news. If you can give some evidence then i will believe you but it will pale in comparison to the 58.000.000 people that died in WW2 which was a religiously fueled war and don't forget the 6.000.000 jews that copped it on top of that.
Of course it is all matter of opinion, do you belive it is a war of Middle East vs west or Christianity vs Islam.
I might add that women are not allowed to pray in some mosques at all or are heavily restricted and can be excluded from the prayer hall all together.
I also add that some mosques do not allow non-muslims to enter under any circumstances whilst many are open to visiters as a sign of community spirit and to attract conversions to Islam.
Do you think I was born yesterday? You may be able to fool the uninformed, but you do not fool me. You have never been in any Mosque for prayer nor any other reason. In otherwords you have told a lie. I know this. You know I know this, but you probably do not know how I know this. Too bad for you.
"So don't say i don't know anything, bigot."
by Spartan.
Yes, you do know how to copy and paste from Wikipedia.
"And be please be patient with my replies, as I am currently involved in a few busy things."
like what? killing sikhs?
"You may be able to fool the uninformed, but you do not fool me."
that's a contradiction.
i'm curious, bigot. what part of the south do you live in?
by the way, spartan, he wants you to move to the other ballot because i can't post there.
^ i know.
Jinn i have been in mosque for prayer and i like to know how you think i haven't.
I know its a copy from wiki.
You asked where the women pray and i told you and now you deny it all together. Have you been in a mosque before, Jinn, or are you too scared that they might blow you up?
Just curious, do you know the arabic word for peace?
Jinn shows typical primitive human behavier, you are scared of them so you have to hate them to make that fear go away. You say that they are evil because you don't agree with their way of life.
I really do think you should meet and get to know the people instead of studying it through a book.
Islam is going through the stage which Christianity and Judaism went through during the middle ages, i reckon that it will sort itself out.
Islam has only truly interupted western life in recent years but i tell you that Christianity has interupted in Islamic affairs for centurys.
You may be able to fool the uninformed, but you do not fool me."
"that's a contradiction." by neothe1
I agree with that.
"Just curious, do you know the arabic word for peace?"
*hand up* i do! i do!
"Jinn i have been in mosque for prayer and i like to know how you think i haven't."
by spartan.
Yes, I'm very much sure you would like to how I know you are a liar.
Just curious, do you know the arabic word for peace?
by Spartan.
What does this have to do with the teachings of Islam, the cult of hate?
However, "Islam" does not mean peace, in case this is what your're driving at.
"Jinn shows typical primitive human behavier, you are scared of them so you have to hate them to make that fear go away. You say that they are evil because you don't agree with their way of life."
by Spartan
More ad hominem, which means you are appealing to your emotions and prejudices rather than intellect. Likewise, your personal opinions and assumptions about me are irrelevant.
You should concern yourself with coming to terms with the undisputable truth and facts about Islam, not prentending to be a Dr. Sigmund Frued or a Frazer Crane.
Nowhere have I stated that I hate Muslims, nor I have I ever sais that Muslims are evil. My conern is with Islam. I am against hate. Islam is a doctrine of hate, from which Muslims are themselves victims.
"I really do think you should meet and get to know the people instead of studying it through a book."
Every single Mulsim walking the Earth today is indoctrinated into their faith through a book called Quran. Did any of them ever meet their Prophet Muhammad, communicate with him, walk with him, reside with him?
If one can only really find the truth about people by personally meeting them, associating with them and getting to know them first hand, instead of from leraning about them from a book, then by your logic, the entire 1400-year-old doctrine of Muhammad should be rejected as a book of reverence, guidance, and truth.
"Islam is going through the stage which Christianity and Judaism went through during the middle ages, i reckon that it will sort itself out."
By Sparatan.
Wow! Your genius is awe inspiring. Why nobody else thought of this is a mystery.
Yes, let's just let Islam sort itself out. What does it matter if millions of innocent humans are slaughtered because of it. Why interfere when instead we should simply all trust that time will eventually make everything better?
In fact, we should never have meddled with Hitler and the Nazis. We could have saved a lot of grief by just letting Nazism sort itself out.
You're a smart "reckoner" Spartan. You would make I fine leader.
"Islam is going through the stage which Christianity and Judaism went through during the middle ages, i reckon that it will sort itself out."
by Spartan.
And at what stage did everything change? I suppose when they realized the Bible actually tought love, peace, foregiveness, and tolerance toward others.
Too bad the Quran is the exact opposite. The Quran expicatly tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q.2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (Q.9:123), slay them (Q.9:5), fight with them (Q.8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (Q.25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q.66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" for ransom (Q.47:4).
Perhaps if we ask nicely we can have some of these Holy Quran teachings deleted.
For example, how about this one, "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Q.5:51)
So how soon do you actually think Islam will become peaceful as long as Muslims are provided with such wonderful teachings as that? At what "stage" shall we look forward to this?
"Islam has only truly interupted western life in recent years but i tell you that Christianity has interupted in Islamic affairs for centurys."
by Spartan.
Although people in the West are becoming more informed about the Islamic doctrine and its teachings, many are still not knowlegeable about Islam's history. This is understandable, since Islamic religious history has never been considered an important part of school studies in the West, and most existing history and reference books in the west give a marginalized or greatly summarized version of Islamic history, without any reference to all the Islamic wars and violence throughout its existance. Thus many people falsely believe Islamic terrorism is a recent phenomenon.
However, Islamic terrorism is not at all a new phenomenon. Islamic terrorism was unleashed starting with Islam's very inception, and has continued virtually unabated since then. For many centuries Islamic terrorism was unleashed by the state and its Muslim rulers, which produced a far greater degree of destructive and ferocious terror. In more recent years, terrorism has been an undertaking of organized underground fringe groups, as Governments and Rulers of Muslim nations have become incapacitated and helpless due to their international obligations in the new modern world order. Islamic terrorism has merely changed hands and nothing more. Further more, numerous nations and the United Nations itself have made it clear, any country caught being involved in any state-sponsored terrorism will pay a great and severe penalty.
In more recent times, and seemingly over shadowing the relative calmness of the last few decades, there appears to have been a sudden surge in violent terrorist activities by Muslims that the media and some people like to describe as the Islamic zealots, radicals and fanatics. Henceforth, there has often been debate as to why Muslims didn't indulge in terrorism and violence during the last more recent decades and centuries. Sure, there may be some consolation in the thinking that Islamic terror and violence was not quite so evident and noticable during the early 20th century. However, there's also a generalized belief or impression among both Muslims and non-Muslims that there wasn't ever any Islamic violence and terrorism until the last two or three decades. In fact, some moderate Mulsims will even claim that there is no incident showing terror or terrorism in Islamic history period, and that Mohammad himself never fought against anyone, not in his entire lifetime.
We can be kind and fair, and presume these uninformed moderate muslims are honest and good hearted people, and that their judgement that Prophet Muhammad was not involved in any kind of violence during his life-time is simply their honest opinion. Yet, these such thoughts, even if they are born from honest opinion, are thoroughly and completely erroneous and are the result of utter ignorance.
In true contrast from being a person of non-violence, the life of Muhammad was in fact a testament of continuous raids, expeditions of plunder against traveling caravans and the ceaseless waging of wars against the infidels (non-Muslim communities). Muhammad himself orchestrated nearly one hundred and fifty wars, raids and expeditions of plunder. Even immediately prior to his death Muhammad was organizing a planned expedition, but suddenly encountered illness, which he did not recover from. But up to this point in time, he already exterminated all of the Judaic settlements and the Jews in and around Medina by way of genocide, mass slaughtering and enslaving in Quraizah and mass eviction from Nadhir and Qainukah He had also launched campaigns against the Judaic tribes in far away places such as Kinan and Kaybar. On Muhammad's deathbed one of his final orders was “Let there be no other religion but Islam”. This command was implimented to full fruition by Muhammad's direct line of successors, starting with the first Caliph, Abu Bakr.
Upon Muhammad's victorious entry into the city of Mecca he destroyed every single temple and deity which the people their had worshipped for many a century. Shortly after his Mecca invasion, the Prophet commanded his general Khalid bin Walid to also destroy all the pagan temples of the neighboring tribes around Mecca. The General arrived upon the Jazima tribe and asked them to say “We are Muslims”. But instead they answered, “We are Sabians”, whereby Khalid had the entire tribe slaughtered. The people of the Jazima tribe had at no time ever given any trouble to the Muslims. At the conclusion of Muhammad's twenty two year militant religious campaign, he had managed to purge the entire Southern region of Arabia of its population of infidel pagans, Jews, Christians and Sabians by way of genocide, mass murder, enslavement, forced conversion and mass exile. This from a so-called holy man who claimed he was a messenger from a merciful god????
Of course the acts of violence and terrorism perpetrated by the Prophet did not just disappear with his death, but instead were re-doubled by his immediate successors; namely, Abu Bakr, Omar and Othman and others who had all been the closest of friends and devout followers of Muhammad. By the time of the rule of the 3rd Caliph Othman, all of the remaining Jewish and Christian peoples of the entire Arabian peninsula were either forcibly converted, exiled or slaughtered, which of course fulfilled the Prophet’s last dying wish that there be no other religion remaining in the region of the holy land of Arabia. The fanatical religious behavior and barbarity among the Muslims of these conquering expeditions were second to none. The type of fierce intolerance and fanaticism inspired by Prophet Muhammad among his followers have no equivalant in the annals of any other religion. Under his command, Muhammad's followers were ready to kill even their own fathers and brothers. The prophet’s ability to compell such fanatical violent behavior inspired Voltaire to remark "Such conduct cannot be defended by any person, unless superstition has choked all the light of reason from him."
The fanaticism and violence inspired by the Prophet was carried forward with ruthless enthusiasm by one of his closest followers, Khalid ibn-Walid, who became one of the most blood thirsty and brutal conquerors in all of Islam, even if judged by by the standard of his own day. But yet his cruelness and brutality were and still are greatly praised among Muslims, who honored him with the title of "Sayif Allah" (the Sword of Allah). In 633, he crushed the Zoroastrians in the Battle of Olayis in Iraq. Over a period of two days his Muslim soldiers gathered together a large multitude of Zoroastrian prisoners, most of whom had surrendered. They were herded to the area of a dried river bed where they were all butchered until such a time as a crimson stream was formed. From that day forward the place proudly took the title of the ‘River of Blood’. Abu Bakr, the caliph was said to have been overcome with joy when news of the victory and slaughter reached him. Khalid also had a depraved and sadistic enjoyment in cutting off the heads a defeated chieftains on the battle field, then subsequently selecting his chieftain's wife (if young) or daughter and celebrating his victory with her on the very spot that was soaked with the blood of the beheaded victim. Is it any wonder he was Muhammad's favorite general?
In 637, under orders from Caliph Omar, the Muslims invaded and conquered Jerusalam. At the time the Jews, the pagans and the Christians in Jerusalam all lived together in harmony. The Muslims destroyed all the Jewish temples and Christian Churches and unleashed a frenzy of looting and pillaging. Sophronius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem at the time, witnessed the spread of Islam in Arabia as well as the fall of Jerusalem, described the Muslim invaders as “godless barbarians who burned down the churches, destroyed the monasteries, profaned upon the Crosses and blasphemed against Christ and the church.”. As a result of the destruction and pillaging by the Muslim invaders of Jerusalem, thousands subsequently died from famine.
The main Jewish temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the invading Muslims, and in its place Caliph Omar the now venerated al-Aqsa mosque. He then issued a decree to Jews and Christians that they could only practice their religion in the confines of their homes. No new churches would be constructed, crosses could not be displayed and no public exhibition of their faith could be made. This treatment was given to the Jews and Christians under the conditions of the "Dhimmis" as given to the People of the Book as stated in the Quran. Still, oppression and discrimination, attacks, raids, looting and the destruction of the places of worship of the non-Muslims continued. These traditional barbarities and atrocities that were put in motion and as ordered by the Prophet Muhammad, for continual Jihad against the Kafirs were forever set in stone in the scriptures of Quran, and continued in its fullest during the era of the Ottoman caliphate.
I am only up to 637, and this is condensed and summarized. If you would like be to continue I will gladly do so, as I am not even close the true Islamic horrors that are yet to come.
"More ad hominem, which means you are appealing to your emotions and prejudices rather than intellect. Likewise, your personal opinions and assumptions about me are irrelevant."
It is nothing to be ashamed of Jinn, everyone is the same.
"Wow! Your genius is awe inspiring. Why nobody else thought of this is a mystery."
"You're a smart "reckoner" Spartan. You would make I fine leader."
Again you insult me, what exactly is your problem Jinn. Try to be civil when you talk to me, the insults are not nessecary and don't help you prove your point.
What do you prepose we do Jinn, slaughter every single muslim in the world?!? The only thing we can do is let it sort itself out and resist. At this present moment in time they pose no real threat to the west.
That piece of history was very interesting, thank you, but what about more recent history, jinn, many cultures and religions slaughtered eachother in that period.
You asked where the women pray and i told you.
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." (5:32)
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (5:33
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." (2:190-191
"This verse is interpreted by Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir as forbidding attacks on non-combatants."
"In parliamentary election of January 2006, 57% of Palestinians voted for Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel, United States, Canada, and the European Union and responsible for a number of attacks against Israeli civilians. Observers are divided over whether the election results represent support for the organization's tactics, support for the organization's social programs, or dissatisfaction with the previous government which was widely seen as corrupt and incompetent. A public opinion survey released following the election, indicated that nearly three quarters of Palestinians believe that Hamas should change its policy regarding the destruction of Israel and 84% of Palestinians support a peace agreement with Israel. Among Hamas voters, 73% of respondents supported a peace agreement with Israel. However Hamas has ruled out removing the clause in its constitution which demands the destruction of Israel."
"A 2005 Pew Research study that involved 17,000 people in 17 countries showed support for terrorism was declining in the Muslim world along with a growing belief that Islamic extremism represents a threat to those countries.A Daily Telegraph surveyshowed that 6% of British Muslims fully supported the July 2005 bombings in the London Underground."
"A 2004 Pew survey revealed that Osama bin Laden is viewed favorably by large percentages in Pakistan (65%), Jordan (55%) and Morocco (45%). In Turkey as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable."
2The Free Muslims Coalition rallied against terror, stating that they wanted to send "a message to radical Muslims and supporters of terrorism that we reject them and that we will defeat them."
"Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Muslim and the general manager of Arab news channel, Al-Arabiya has said: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims." Statistics compiled by the United States government's Counterterrorism Center present a more complicated picture: of known and specified terrorist incidents from the beginning of 2004 through the first quarter of 2005, slightly more than half of the fatalities were attributed to Islamic extremists but a majority of over-all incidents were considered of either "unknown/unspecified" or a secular political nature. The vast majority of the "unknown/unspecified" terrorism fatalities did however happen in Islamic regions such as Iraq and Afghanistan, or in regions where Islam is otherwise involved in conflicts such as the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, southern Thailand and Kashmir.The methodology employed by the Center is sometimes disputed."
"Iranian Ayatollah Ozma Seyyed Yousef Sanei issued a fatwa (ruling) that suicide attacks against civilians are legitimate only in the context of war. The ruling did not say whether other types of attacks against civilians are justified outside of the context of war, nor whether Jihad is included in Sanei's definition of war."
"On the other hand, Fethullah Gulen, a prominent Turkish Islamic scholar, has claimed that "a real Muslim," who understood Islam in every aspect, could not be a terrorist. There are several, if not many, other people with similar points of view such as Karen Armstrong, Prof. Ahmet Akgunduz, and Harun Yahya"
Thats the muslim view on terrorism.
"In the 7th century, the Sassanid dynasty was overthrown by the Arabs. Although some of the later rulers had Zoroastrian shrines destroyed, generally Zoroastrians were included as People of the Book and allowed to practice their religion freely. Mass conversions to Islam were not desired or imposed, in accordance with Islamic law. However, there was a slow but steady movement of the population of Persia toward Islam. The nobility and city-dwellers were the first to convert. Islam spread more slowly among the peasantry and the dihqans, or landed gentry. Later, the jizya, a poll tax imposed on non-muslims, probably accelerated the process."
"Before armed conflict started between the Meccans and Medinans, Sa'd ibn Mua'dh warned the Meccans of upcoming raids. Muslims started raiding caravans going to and from Mecca. Such activities were initially denounced by Muhammad. When a group of Muslims started raiding caravans with Abu Basir, Muhammad said, "Woe to his mother! What excellent war kindler he would be, should he only have supporters".
"It was only when they were permitted to fight, that the Muslim community started a mission to capture the wealth of meccan caravans, these expeditions were bloodless, with the first blood being spilt by the death of a guard of the Al-Hadrami caravan at Nakhlah, thereby formally setting up a blood feud from the Meccan end, though the Muslims would claim it had started when they were expelled and lost their property. It was in such a context that the Battle of Badr took place during one particular expedition in which the Muslims sought to waylay it to recoup for the property and wealth their possessions that they had been forced to abandon in Mecca, and the Meccans who unknown to the Muslims also quickly mobilized a force for it's defence. thus setting up the Battle of Badr. Abu Sufyan leading the caravan got wind of the Muslim intention and rerouted the caravan, thereby escaping and sent a message to the Meccan to return as the caravan was now safe. Thereupon, Abu Jahl exhorted the army to press on and fight the Muslims, some members refused and returned while the rest moved on to fight and were defeated by the smaller Muslim army."
"The Meccans then fought against the Muslims at the Battle of Uhud. They made a final attempt at the Battle of the Trench. Uhud was a battle started purely by the Meccans for retaliation to their military loss in Badr, and the Battle of the Trench was the final trial by the Meccans to end the Muslim presence. The latter was also exclusively started by the huge Meccan forces, accompanied by other armies from outside Mecca."
"Raids against other tribesrnThe Muslims also set their new military organization against various non-Meccan groups. Two Jewish groups were expelled from Medina. In light of a perceived betrayal of the part of their Jewish allies at the Battle of the Trench, where the Jewish leadership was believed to have allied itself with the Meccan assailants, the Muslims defeated and killed, the last remaining Jewish tribe in Medina. The result was that the Muslims eventually became the rulers of the oasis to which they had fled as refugees."
"As a result of these campaigns, some nomadic tribes decided that it was in their best interests to ally with the Muslims. They accepted Islam, destroyed their own cult figures and shrines, and accepted Muhammad as their leader."
Muslim alliance versus Meccan alliance
"By expanding their military operations and negotiating with the nomads, the Muslims had created an alliance with greater resources than Mecca, alone, could muster. The Meccans in their turn made alliances with Bedouin tribes. Two large alliances faced each other, poised for warfare."
HUDAYBIYA "By old custom, during the months of pilgrimage, tribal hostilities stopped and all were free to visit Mecca. In March of 628, Muhammad put on the garb of a pilgim and taking a small force and camels for sacrifice, set out for Mecca."
"According to the early chronicler Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad took 700 men (Guillaume 1955, p. 500). According to Watt, Muhammad took 1400 to 1600 men (Watt 1957, p. 46)."
"The Meccans did not accept the Muslim professions of peaceful intent and sent out an armed party against them. The Muslims evaded them by taking a side route through the hills around Mecca, and then camped outside Mecca, at Hudaybiya. Ibn Ishaq describes a tense period of embassies and counter-embassies, including a bold foray by Uthman ibn Affan into the city of Mecca, where he was temporarily held as a hostage. The Meccans told the Muslims that Uthman had been killed and open warfare seemed imminent."
"Then the situation shifted radically. Uthman was revealed to be alive, and the Meccans expressed their willingness to negotiate a truce. The Muslims wanted to attack, but Muhammad held out for a peaceful resolution"
"The treaty of Hudaybiya committed both sides to a ten-year truce. The Muslims were to be allowed to return the next year, to perform the pilgrimage."
MUSLIMS TAKE MECCA
"Less than two years after the truce of Hudaybiya, the truce was broken by a squabble between tribes allied to the Meccans and Medinans. There h |
