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COMMENTS:
Well, I doubt I would hire someone if I hadnt seen their face. As humans we learn a lot about each other from facial expressions, talking expressions etc.
As for whether these women were PURPOSELY using this fact to their advantage. That I dont know. It doesnt seem likely that the Dutch authorities could know that either.
Women wear the burka for religious observation, not to show up to an interview just to purposely not get hired.
I wonder if there any follow up results to cutting welfare benefits for unemployed women? Women from the ME have it the toughest, proposing a ban will just make it harder for women who wear the burka. What if their husbads don't let them leave the house?
by aya on Fri Nov 17, 06 11:47am
[+]
lil_ape, don't their religous observations deserve to be respected? If it's tv, I could understand, I think it was ridiculious for Sweden to allow for a full veiled woman to become an anchorwoman. But if they're not working with teh public, should it matter if they show their face or not? I myself dislike the burka, but some women wear it, but I can't do anything about it.
by aya on Fri Nov 17, 06 11:49am
[+]
ppl, leave a comment when you vote, ok?
by aya on Fri Nov 17, 06 11:49am
[+]
lil_ape is right on. it may be religious observation in their country or for their religion, but its not the majority in western europe. sorry but at some point people have to respect the culture of the country the live in. if they need the benefits so bad, they can remove the burka in the interview with what ever social service agency they have to go to. it would be like me wearing a ski mask every where and saying "but my religion requires me to." on this issue i am not at all sympathetic to the burka wearers.
Voted : probably
forgot.
Voted : no
What if the country of origin IS Western Europe?
Many Muslims in the UK were born here, so how do we discriminate against them?
Christianity is a middle eastern religion as is Judaism, should people not be allowed to wear skull caps and crucifixes in case of offence?
steel, you're missing the point. nice diversion, but won't cut it. look, the fac it, it has nothing to do with whether the burka wearer is from another country or born right thre in holland. the fact is, the overwhelming tradidion is that people do not and have not worn complete facial coverings for things like interviews. you cannot deny that to do, is very much contrary to the way things in western countries are done. fact.
second fact. when westeners travel to muslim countries, particularly saudi arabia, they are forced to adhere to their customs. e.g. women must cover their faces and hair, no one can consume alcohol, women are supposed to be accompanied by men in public and, you are supposed to remove crosses and other non-muslim religious wear. why? why would you defend it as fair that we are supposed to fully adhere to their customs, but they are not supposed to respect western values and cultures?
i can't believe you are just playing devil's advocate once again -- for no reason other than to take a contrarian view.
you know full well that the saudi government made travelers coming in on flight to saudi arabia remove things like crucifix's and you know full well that employess of british airways were told not to wear crosses or carry bibles on flights to country's like saudi arabia.
fact is, if you are going to live in a country, you have to expect to respect their ways and culture -- just like how westerners are expected to do so in most muslim countries.
if the burka wearer is dutch born, then they should know better. if not, then they should respect that their new host country is not comfortable with them wearing the burka's during interviews for jobs. seems perfectly fair to me.
no answer the question using your brain.
^ that's supposed to say "now answer the question using your brain." i realize now that would take a very long time. 
i have a question too. is it all of holland doing this, or just the city of utrecht? i'm curious if this is just something they're doing in one city in the whole country.
The whole of the Netherlands is proposing a ban on full length burkas.
by aya on Fri Nov 17, 06 12:24pm
[+]
"Basing the order on security concerns apparently was intended to respond to warnings that outlawing clothing like the all-enveloping burqa, worn by some Muslim women, could violate the constitutional guarantee against religious discrimination."
by aya on Fri Nov 17, 06 12:25pm
[+]
sounds like they're doing the opposite. if they're concerned about violating religious freedom, it sounds like they're not looking to ban the wearing of burkas, but regulate instances in which they should be removed, at least on the face, in certain situations.
Voted : no
I doubt women are using burkas to purposely not be hired. Sounds sort of far-fetched to me. Like lil_ape said, I don't think the Dutch authorities could acurately determine if they were purposely wearing burkas to avoid getting hired; as such welfare benefits should probably not be cut :/
"fact is, if you are going to live in a country, you have to expect to respect their ways and culture"
Agreed. But having respect for a nation's culture does not mean disowning your own. So long as the minority religious tradition in question isn't harming others, financially or otherwise then the tradition should be allowed. If someone discovers a way to accurately determine that these women are wearing burkas to live off Dutch taxpayers, then by all means, cut welfare benefits. But Utrecht seems to be acting on what's only a far-fetched possibility.
of course. i don't think anyone, including the dutch are saying they cannot wear burkas. however, lets be realistic here. in the functioning of the government, if they determine that the burka wearer cannot wear one for their driver's licsense picture, or for other forms of picture i.d, or on interviews to get government monies, etc., that's really not that extreme. its not always a situation of "not harming others" as much as it is following the normal course of business or carrying out the daily operations of government. what you do for one, you have to do for all. like i said, whats to stop some religion from sprining up and saying that all of their members must wear full-face ski masks all the time -- so they could wear them when they go for a drivers licsense? its imporant you show your face in a job interview for crying out loud -- i mean you would have no idea who you're hiring! you could easily send someone more qualified in for you to interview for the job, take any type of requirment test, drug tests, the whole bit, and then when your first day of the job starts, you actually go -- even though it was someone else under that burka who actually landed the job for you!
sounds extreme, but think along those terms. sorry, but its important to see people's faces for certain things and to expect the normal operations of business and government to bend for the minority, is just wrong.
Voted : no
(walking away from computer)
(returning several seconds later)
Why did I decide to stop trying to destroy this stupid, worthless planet?
There is a marked difference between Saudia Arabia and the UK (the country I was born in)
The UK is a secular society, Saudi Arabia is a religious one.
If I was born in Saudi and grew up there, would I disown my western ways? Unlikely, but I would try and assimilate.
Just because the UK and other countries are secular and believe in pluralism, does not hold that others must.
The reason we in the UK are a great nation is that we allow diversity and embrace different cultures.
This is not the case for other countries, such as Iran, Saudi Arabia among others.
They have a different society, but one cannot decide to show these countries a better way, by acting in the same manner, that teaches people nothing
No
"Just because the UK and other countries are secular and believe in pluralism, does not hold that others must"
If they want to live in this country it does. If it is that important to them, then they can live somewhere else.
If it doesnt harm anyone, fair enough. But not being able to see someones face DOES affect other people. As an employer I would have to be able to IDENTIFY the employee.
How would I even KNOW whether the person I hired was BEHIND the Burka for gods sake?!
Its common sense really Steel. You should try using some.
I ride motorcycles, today i went to fill my tank up with petrol at a petrol station. I can't keep my helmet on in case i do a runner, THEY NEED TO SEE A FACE ON CCTV yet this does not apply to women wearing burkas. So fuck em take away their handouts.
by isay on Fri Nov 17, 06 2:53pm
[+]
Who says they MUST Lil, are we living in a free state or a police state?
Many muslims are born here, so who are we to dictate how they express thier faith.
'Common sense is a set of prejudices aquired by the age of 18 - Albert Einstein'
Like I said, if its something that doesnt affetc their ability to co-exist peacefully, then no problem, respect their cultural diversity.
If its something that goes against the very dieals we live by in this country, then thats unnaceptable.
The Koran teaches that unfaithful wives should be punished with 100 lashes, should we allow Muslim men to continue this tradition in a western country to "respect their cultural diversity"?
Surely even YOU dont condone such barbaric treatment of women, do you steel?
The two things do not correalaye Lil, there is a difference between adhering to a custom that affects the invidual concerned, its a different matter when it is used to mutilate, beat or subjigate.
As to the ideals we live by in this country (UK) I heartily support them.
Diversity, multiculturalism, pluralism, justice, asylum, tolerance and above all common decency.
These are what makes Britain great, its our abilty to absorb new cultures into our society and so bring an even better society.
It seems to have worked for 2000 odd years, long may it be so.
Which religion do you follow that has the custom of wearing a crash helmet Isay?
Do you really understand the difference?
It's nothing to do with religion, it's about everyone being treated the same in a country regarding its rules and laws. If i have to remove what ever covers my face to buy fuel then so should everyone else. or do you disagree?
by isay on Fri Nov 17, 06 4:07pm
[+]
Voted : no
one has the right to practice one's religion and covering one's face might be considered a religious observance. However if you feel strongly enough about upholding your religious convictions, sometimes you just have to be willing to accept the consequences.
Personally, I wouldn't hire someone who wouldn't show their face. I don't even like talking to people when i can't see their eyes. Then again i wouldn't hire someone who walked into the interview carrying a bible either. I probably wouldn't tell them this - but i wouldn't hire them all the same. As for cutting their benefits - it's questionable. What jobs ARE available for someone who chooses not to show their face? I don't care if women choose to wear the veil (though personally i find it a bit bizarre), however i don't want that person cleaning my teeth, or checking my groceries at the store, or doing my taxes. i want to see someone's face when i interact with them, and if they don't want to - well then i don't want to interact. so i guess i'm a bigot after all huh?
"there is a difference between adhering to a custom that affects the invidual concerned"
Ignoring your poor grammar for a second  I agree with that.
However, I believe wearing a burka for job interviews affects OTHER people as well. Thats where we differ.
Just out of curiosity Steel, let me ask you a question if you will. Please give me a simple yes or no.
If the Islamic holy book, the koran, teaches that homosexuals should be stoned to death, and unfaithful wives beaten to within an inch of their life, is it fair to say that Islam is not compatible with Western values?
Or do you argue that those things are acceptable in civilised society?
Who says they MUST Lil, are we living in a free state or a police state?
Many muslims are born here, so who are we to dictate how they express thier faith.
'Common sense is a set of prejudices aquired by the age of 18 - Albert Einstein'
by Steelhamster on Fri Nov 17, 06 4:02pm
okay mr. hater of all things western. so then, mormans believe in having multiple wives, often teen age girls. should we let them?
how about wiccan? there are witches who believe in sacrificing people and animals on alters. should we let them?
how about if christians decided we really should take and eye for an eye? should we let them?
how about in the muslim religion, there is the belief that if you catch a thief, you cut off his hand. should we let them?
in some religions, women are considered property to be sold. should we let them?
There is a marked difference between Saudia Arabia and the UK (the country I was born in)
The UK is a secular society, Saudi Arabia is a religious one.
by Steelhamster on Fri Nov 17, 06 2:33pm
^ exactly steel, most western countries are in fact, secular. and accordingly, religious freedoms should be allowed, as long as they do not break laws or violate civic codes, codes of business and the normal day-to-day operations of government and society.
whats happening in holland is the government appears to be saying -- "you need to get a job. if wearing your burka is preventing you from getting a job (and i'm sure that's what business leaders are saying) then you need to take off the burka while you interview for a job, since you can't stay on the dole for ever."
if that person refuses to remove the burka and that is the main factor keeping them unemployed --- why should the greater society continue to work their fingers to the bone, while she keeps her burka on and continues to get money for nothing.
face it -- you know its wrong to bend the rules for so few.
Voted : probably
They have to give a little if they want to live in the west. You can keep your burkas (devised by a culture that treats women as fairly low quality livestock), but you have to bend to our ways every now and then.
Let interviewers see your face, let us put your actual face on government IDs, not some generic cloth sack, etc.
The sad irony of this situation is that the people who are the most outraged by this incident wouldn't dare criticize a muslim nation for requiring foriegn, non-muslim, women to wear burkas in their countries on pain of death.
There is only so much we can be reasonably expected to dismantle our civilization to appease the arabs.
No doubt they take great offense to our allowing homosexuals to live, women to vote, and non-muslims to practice their religon openly and without violent suppression. Tough, take offense, we won't make the west more like the middle east to win the flimsy support of some fanatics.
I don't believe so, they probably treat it as a religios requirement. That doesn't mean the Dutch weren't right in cutting benefits. They are also less likely to be hired for wearing burkhas.
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