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COMMENTS:
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
There are no jobs that americans will not do.
There are some that americans aren't willing to do at a certain payrate, which is being driven down by illegals. But if they were all deported today the positions they once filled would not remain empty for long.
Voted : No, despite this evidence it is still true
Hmmm, so the 'evidence' of one example, makes the case does it?
I hope it is true, too many Americans are losing out to non-union, cheap labour.
If some Americans are happy with neat poverty wages and little or no safety procedures in place, then by all means, let them.
In the long run, they play nicely into the hands of the bosses, who see the workforce as little more than chattel anyway.
Steel: if the claim is that americans will not do these jobs, and the evidence stands contrary to this, then yeah I'd say that makes the case.
And the reason the wages were low and safety procedures were lax is that they were up till now hiring illegals. Stop hiring illegals and they must pay at least minimum wage and adhere to OSHA standards. So really you ought to be staunchly against illegal immigration. Why aren't you?
If you want to claim the world is flat it will only take one example to prove you wrong.
But here's an example for you: would you pick fruit in the summer in california (I know how you europeans don't do so well in the heat) for $5/day?
No? How about $50,000/day? Probably.
So somewhere between those two numbers is the lowest wage you'd be willing to work at, but you would be willing to work at it. This is the free market at work.
The market is free for those who want to exploit the worker.
Fruit picking is back breaking work, so should the pickers be properly compensated?
Or should we subscribe to the notion that the people who do none of the work should profit off the backs of the workers as you seem to advocate?
Its very easy to pontificate, when people have options open to them, we both are university educated, can command decent recompense for our labour and can cherry pick the careers we wish to pursue.
Thats all great, but we still want our fresh fruit and vegetables, we still need our garbage collected and we still need our clothes made by others.
Is it beyond the scope of reason to pay these workers a wage above subsistance level?
The free market is only an illusion, there is nothing free or market about it, it is exploitative and unegalitarian.
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
APPLICANTS LINE UP TO FILL POSITIONS LEFT EMPTY BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT RAIDS
The *immigrant raids* were illegal?Better re-import 'em then. Haha
I cannot believe you are buying into this 'photo opportunity' news story, Passive.
It depends. A pear crop in California rotted when illegals were deported there, so it depends on the local labor market.
Steel: so you don't believe this actually happened? A conspiracy perhaps?
Sky: there will be temporary inconviences when they are deported, just as any company would be temporarily disrupted should their employees go to jail for illegal activities, but in the long run things would be worked out to everyones satisfaction.
No not a conspiracy, herzog, Just a very convenient story, in order to bolster your flimsy argument.
There is nothing the right like more than a 'I told you so' story to help justify their selfishness.
One 'story' does not a winter make...
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
yep. always knew that was the case. these greedy companies hired the cheapest labor they could find. slave labor. pay an illegal $4 bucks or less an hour. who are they going to tell? no one. this proves that line about them filling jobs americans won't do is a bunch of bull.
I am laughing so hard it hurts, one story appears and all of a sudden the right are vindicated, I guess that gives me carte blanche to pick one story at random and prove any point I like.
Ok steel, find a story where illegals were deported and no workers could ever be found to replace them at any price.
I'm not sure why you're so pro-illegal immigration, when it's proven to depress wages and working conditions. Seems kind of like the opposite of what you ought to believe in. Or are you pro-workers rights only when it's convienent?
Hey Steelhamster, I live in an area where 1 in 5 agricultural jobs are filled by illegal immigrants.
I assure you if those 20K seasonal jobs weren't filled by illegal immigrants, finding a decent, above minimum wage job won't be so competetive.
I'm all for immigration as long as it's done legally.
I believe if illegal immigrants willfully disregard immigration laws, they're likely to disregard other laws just the same.
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
Indeed.
Steelhamster- "Fruit picking is back breaking work, so should the pickers be properly compensated?
Or should we subscribe to the notion that the people who do none of the work should profit off the backs of the workers as you seem to advocate?"
- The reasoning behind the idea that the idea that the managers should be paid more, stems from the idea that the physical skills of the workers is more common, whereas the intellectual skills of the higher positions are supposedly rarer, and supposedly should rewarded more.
"Is it beyond the scope of reason to pay these workers a wage above subsistance level?"
- It is difficult to enforce minimum wage laws for illegal immigrants. Therefore, yes, many greedy companies do exploit this, and pay them much less than they deserve. And this lowers the wages all around.
I'm in favour of legal immigration. And I'm also in favour of creating conditions in the Global South, of high economic growth and development, so that people there wouldn't need to feel the need to leave illegally in the first place. This would include investment, and providing employment. It worked when Japan did so to South Korea and Taiwan. Japan didn't follow the policy of letting any and all poor Koreans and Taiwanese into Japan as the ultimate solution to end their economic woes. Rather Japan, patiently and consistently put in the long-term plan of investment and outsourcing jobs to those two countries- so that they could become wealthier in their own countries- and it was in Japan's own self-interest to do so. Now, South Korea and Taiwan do indeed have much wealthier people, and this helped in my opinion with their democratisation and stabilisation as well. This should be emulated elsewhere.
Simply letting in wave after wave of illegal immigrants doesn't help fix the problem as much in the long term.
I'd need a lot more data than can be inferred from this article in order to be able to answer the question conclusively.
However, it's pretty obvious that if the job in question isn't going to be filled by an illegal immigrant, it has to be filled by a legal immigrant or a citizen for the business to continue. Those are the only two options left, unless the business relied so heavily on the cheap labor of illegal immigrants that it collapses when it has to pay standard wages.
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
However, that line is a gross generalization. It is more accurate to say that many of and perhaps most of the jobs that illegal immigrants fill would not be adequately staffed by citizens at the same pay rate.
steel, you don't live in this country. sorry, but yes, there is a huge difference. you read about this once in a while, right? yeah. these stories are in our news almost daily. sorry bud, but there are some nation-specific issues that really the people of that nation are more qualified to speak on. i sincerely doubt you spend all your time researching this issue. you don't.
while of course you can have an opininon and should fee free to espress it, your being kind of obnoxious with your cynicism. this is really not a world news itme -- it's a national one that affect us and not you. thanks for the input but maybe keep the mockery in check. thanks.
Voted : Comment
For eight years and change, I had a job that paid $75K+, and *no one*, legal or otherwise, would've wanted it.
Voted : Yes, this shows that is simply not true
But, some will continue to deny it.
I think I should point out Im not 'pro' illegal immigration, I am pro worker.
You make a good point, Socrates when you say that investment in the poorer countries is needed in order to stem the exodus from poorer countries into the US.
Let us look at what makes a country poor. This is a mixture of corruption in those countries and punative markets.
There is level playing field as long as the rich countries continue to put high levies on imported goods from developing nation while at the same time pouring huge subsidy into the home markets, especially agriculture.
Herzog, again, I am not pro illegal immigration, I am pro fairness. It saddens me, that the plight of an economy is put at the feet of the immigrant (legal or otherwise) when the fault can be found on the door step of the administration that spends trillions on a pointless foreign war, but can find nothing like the same investment in bolstering the infrastructure of poor countries and the depressed areas in their own country.
As to te argument that 'intellectuals' should be paid more that those employed in physical labour, that is fine, but why is the gap so large?
Im not saying lets pay fruitpickers 200K per year, but surely in the 21st century we can pay above poverty wages.
And finally onto Kev's point about this being an exclusively 'American' problem. I am afraid to burst your bubble, but we also have a problem with it in the UK and so does the rest of the developed world.
As as there is rich and a poor, the poor will do anything they can, legal or otherwise to lift themselves out of poverty.
^ but we're talking on this ballot about the situation as it pertains directly to the united states. illegal immigration may well be a problem on your side of the pond too, but you deal with it and allow us to debate and deal with our unique situation. your illegal immigration problem, to the best of my knowledge, is not on the scale of ours. you cynical comments are directed to the problem being raised in this ballot. unless i'm mistaken, i have not seen you comment on the european issue of illegal immigration, just ours. i in fact never said it was a unique american problem (which i notice you put in quote -- which was tricky of you). go find my comment where i say it is a purely unique american problem. i didn't. this ballot however is talking about a facutal, newsworthy even that happened in this country and as such, that is what we are debating. besides cynical and mocking comments, what are you doing?
Steel: so you're still working on that evidence to the contrary huh? You know, proof that whenever illegals are deported jobs are left permanently unfilled, which is like . . . kind of the question asked.
My friend, Steel, I know this will come across as insensitive and I certainly don't adhere to the concept, but, the plight of an economically poor Country on my door step, whether politically corrupt, a lack of resources or for whatever reason, does not become another Nation's responsibility; or that of necessity must cater to the deficit of a poor Country by condoning breaching National Security, whether it's though the economy or by threat of attack, and skirt the law.
People who abet or condone illegal immigration reward the illegal worker for breaking the law, by offering jobs and wages substantially above their own Country's standard yet far below the host Country's. Many see it as a win/win situation; however, it only benefits the parties subjugating the law and aides in weakening the dollar and raising inflation when those wages are sent abroad with no product of exchange.
How is it acceptable for employers and illegal immigrants to prosper from crime and weaken my Country’s economic power? If I put up a fence to keep them out, that’s my prerogative. Should I do something to aid in strengthening that poor Country’s economy and raise their standard of living? Yes. But illegal immigration is not the means to do it. It contributes to the problem more than it helps. It makes no difference if it’s one or one thousand.
Passive: Again, I have to reiterate, I do not condone illegal imigration, but I do understand the motives of those who try it.
As for the employers who flout the law, I utterly agree with you, if these employers were prosecuted for every time the broke the law, then non immigrant workers could be employed and wages would rise.
Herzog: I have restate my previous remarks, your 'evidence' does not prove your case, unless you seriously believe that one news story makes your point entirely.
Kev: I'm sure when Herzog posted the ballot, he was not asking Americans only to comment on the immigration issue. It is possible to make parallels between the US and Europe.
I would like to see all workers, especially in these fields (no pun intended) become unionised, in order to stop the exploitation, in the end, the employer needs the workers and so should compensate them adequately and provide a safe environment for them to work in, and until employers grow big hearts and do it out of a benevolent love of their fellow man, workers must organise in order to secure a future for themselves.
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