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RUSSIA AND ISLAM, AND A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS?

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RUSSIA AND ISLAM, AND A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS?


[+] serious ballot by xxxxxxxx
ACTIVE Wed Apr 18, 07 - Thu Apr 17, 08

"Islam's rapid rise giving Russia growing pains
Stephen Boykewich
AFP

MAKHACHKALA, Russia -- Ask Khadji Gasan Gasanaliyev, imam of an independent mosque in this North Caucasus city, what is wrong with Russia, and he tells how a three-year-old held a gun to his head.

The bearded, excitable imam sprawled face-down on the floor, imitating a friend's young son who threw a tantrum when Gasanaliyev was trying to lead the namaz, or daily prayer that devout Muslims recite five times a day.

Gasanaliyev dragged the boy up from the floor, and in return the boy got a toy gun and pressed it to the kneeling imam's temple.

"A three-year-old boy! Where did he learn this?" Gasanaliyev asked, his eyes wide behind a pair of thick glasses. "There is no pity, there is no kindness here ... Look at this civilization: Women going around naked on television, even on the street, violence everywhere. This is civilization?"

Muslims all across the country are asking similar questions about the nature of contemporary Russian society - even as their rapid rise is transforming not only the face of this traditionally Orthodox Christian country, but its culture.

Mosques that were once all but empty now overflow with believers at Friday midday prayers, from Makhachkala to the courtyard of Moscow's central Cathedral Mosque, where hundreds of men denied spaces inside kneel on prayer rugs and newspapers.

Russia's population has been in free-fall since the Soviet collapse in 1991, dropping by 5 percent to 142.5 million and sparking forebodings of the collapse of the state along with multibillion-dollar programs to raise birthrates.

But while ethnic Russians struggle for survival, the country's Muslim population is booming thanks to higher birthrates and a flood of immigrants from largely Muslim Central Asia. Official statistics put Russia's Muslim population at 12 million in 1989, while current estimates are as high as 30 million.

Mix in concerns over Islamist radicalism in the Northern Caucasus, which has seen two wars and hundreds of extremist attacks since the Soviet collapse, and Muslims here face challenges that range from ignorance about their religion to threats to their lives.

Dzhamshid Aliboyev, 26, told how he bewildered his coworkers on his first day of work in February at a Moscow auto-parts factory, where he was the only Muslim on a team of 50.

He laid out his prayer rug in the lobby for morning namaz, and "one by one, every single one of them stopped work to poke their heads in the door and stare at me. They said: 'We've got a Muslim! What on earth is he doing?'"

After several weeks of lunchtime question-and-answer sessions, "now my cell phone alarm goes off to remind me about the namaz, and they're all excited. 'You're going to pray now?' they say."

Not all of Russia's Muslims feel so welcome.

"Of course I'm afraid," said Makhmud, a Kyrgyz man in his late 50s who moved to Moscow three months ago seeking work. "You see young men with shaved heads on the street or the metro, and you know that anything could happen."

Muslims bear brunt of escalating racist violence in Russia

Muslims bear the brunt of the escalating racist violence in Russia. Racist attacks struck 539 people last year, a 17-percent rise over 2005, the Sova analytical center said in a report last week. Nearly half of the 56 people killed in the attacks were from the North Caucasus and Central Asia - both overwhelmingly Muslim.

"Xenophobia is growing very quickly here, and Islamophobia is growing along with it and will continue to, there's no question," said Alexei Malashenko, an expert on Islam in Russia at the Carnegie Moscow Center.

Underlying the threat to Russian Muslims as individuals is a deep uncertainty that the Russian government feels about how to handle the quick rise of the faith.

President Vladimir Putin meets with Kremlin-friendly Muslim leaders regularly and underlines the centuries-old presence of Islam in Russia during his visits to traditionally Muslim countries.

But in Makhachkala, the capital of the Caucasian region of Dagestan, Imam Gasanaliyev's energetic delivery turned angry when he was asked about the government's relation to Islam.

"They hate this religion," he said, pounding his fist on the table. "There's no help, no support for us at all."

It might seem an odd claim in Dagestan, where 80 percent of the population is Muslim and the government is sponsoring a mosque-building boom.

But as an advocate of what he calls "pure Islam" - as opposed to the government-friendly Islam that has dominated in Russia since the time of the tsars - Gasanaliyev hovers on the edge of what authorities see as a foreign-sponsored threat.

When the Soviet Union fell, radical Islamist influence from abroad provoked a split in the North Caucasus "between so-called traditional Islam and pure Islam - the Wahhabists, as we call them," Dagestani President Mukhu Aliyev told journalists recently.

"We're openly struggling against them and will continue to, because they don't recognize the constitution, don't recognize the authorities ... they don't recognize any language except that of the machine gun."

For many Muslims, though, corruption among politicians and state law enforcement agencies only proves the need for a higher authority.

"They steal, they say they're going to do things for people and do nothing - of course, we trust our imams more," said Rasul, 26, an unemployed agricultural college graduate in Makhachkala.

Gasanaliyev also charged that law enforcement deliberately targeted the most devout young Muslims, seeing them as potential radicals.

"No less than 20 or 30 young people have disappeared over the last two to three years, no one knows where," Gasanaliyev said. "There are people like that in every mosque. The most worthy, respectable young people are the ones who disappear."

Back in Moscow, local and federal authorities show their two-sided relationship to Islam just as clearly.

Dozens of the faithful waited long after a recent midday Friday namaz for the results of a meeting between Russian Council of Muftis head Ravil Gainutdin, Moscow mayor Yury Luzhkov, and two top Kremlin aides over how to kick-start the planned expansion of the Cathedral Mosque.

Construction of a new hall that would quadruple the mosque's capacity has been stalled for over a year in spite of a pledge of support from Putin in January 2005.

The talks this month ended with vague promises to help find additional funding.

Twenty-five-year-old Abdul-Qodr, an Uzbek immigrant to Moscow, was not disheartened. The whole world is moving closer to Islam, he said, and Russia is moving along with it.

"Just a few years ago we were amazed when Russians or Americans or French people converted to Islam. No one's amazed anymore," he said."

(Source: Middle East Times)


- Does it seem to you that there is / will be increasingly a Clash of Civilizations between Russia and Islam?

Yes
No


Ballot #114083 : SEE RESULTS

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COMMENTS:
Voted : Yes
There is indeed a Clash between Russia (which is part of Orthodox Civilization) with that of Islamic civilization.

Some have argued that this clash is probably more intense than any clash between the West with Islamic civilization.
by xxxxxxxx on Wed Apr 18, 07 10:54am [+]

All of these civilizational clashes are of what Huntington predicted in his book 'The Clash of Civilizations'.
by xxxxxxxx on Wed Apr 18, 07 10:55am [+]

Voted : Yes
There will be a "clash of civilizations" between RADICAL Islam and ANY civilization or culture who will not conform to the theocratic fascism espoused by these weirdos. Disgusting little bizarros.
by margaret123 on Wed Apr 18, 07 1:41pm [+]

Fuck off, "herzog".
by ramaDUNG on Wed Apr 18, 07 2:27pm [+]

ramaDUNG- what are you angry about? I did not pick on any one side. When you read the article, did you notice that problems on both sides were mentioned? Or should we ignore that there are problems existent?

And if you are suggesting that I am herzog, that is not true. However, I take a comparison to him to be a compliment. I have a lot of respect for herzog.
by xxxxxxxx on Wed Apr 18, 07 11:01pm [+]

You respect a bigot? Hmm.
by ramaDUNG on Thu Apr 19, 07 4:26pm [+]

Russia will most definitely lose in the end...And say it isn't so, you consider being compared to Herzog a compliment? Oh the infamy of it all! 102
by Barbara_Baby_Cakes on Thu Apr 19, 07 6:42pm [+]

BBC- yes, herzog, (along with Cathexis, Truthseeker013 and steelhamster) is one of my favourite users.

So?
by xxxxxxxx on Fri Apr 20, 07 8:14am [+]

DUNG- challenging political correctness gone way too far is not bigotry.
by xxxxxxxx on Fri Apr 20, 07 8:14am [+]

Ha! Your endless screed of ballots pointing fingers at foreigners goes way beyond a healthy distaste for positive discrimination and political correctness. You & herzog are bigots of the same kidney.
by ramaDUNG on Fri Apr 20, 07 11:55am [+]

"BBC- yes, herzog, (along with Cathexis, Truthseeker013 and steelhamster) is one of my favourite users.

So?" ~ Socrates

So? ~ Barbara_Baby_Cakes
by Barbara_Baby_Cakes on Fri Apr 20, 07 3:55pm [+]

So BBC, that is why I find a comparison to him to be a compliment, because he is one of the four of my favourite users. I don't see the infamy in having respect for them.
by xxxxxxxx on Sat Apr 21, 07 2:48am [+]

dung- the fact that many users behave as if foreigners are beyond criticism emphasises the political correctness gone too far. I wouldn't have to keep harping on the issue, if there wasn't so much moral relativism and overly-politically correct responses to such ballots, and if Western society in general were not so politically correct.
by xxxxxxxx on Sat Apr 21, 07 2:52am [+]

^Don't be fucking ridiculous.

If some users may appear to stick up for foreigners, it's probably because certain bigots *repeatedly* post tub-thumping, finger-pointing ballots about them.

And I will not tolerate prickless little nazis that seek to vilify entire races.

Consider that a warning, fella. Continue in your present vein and I will hound you to death on this site.
by ramaDUNG on Sat Apr 21, 07 3:12am [+]

Besides which, all individuals should be expected to adhere to individual rights- 'tradition' is not a good enough excuse not to.
by xxxxxxxx on Sat Apr 21, 07 3:12am [+]

DUNG- "seek to vilify entire races."

- I do not seek to vilify race. Here is a huge politically correct problem- that one perceives criticism of individuals who happen to be of a certain race as an attack on the entire race. That is not true. I never say anything about entire races, but rather of specific individuals mentioned in articles, or cultural attitudes (yes, there is a difference between culture and race, the two are independent).
by xxxxxxxx on Sat Apr 21, 07 3:17am [+]

Oh, please...!

So the fact that you post endless articles where specifically Muslims are shown in a bad light isn't an attack on Islam, just on those particular Muslims in each case?

Right. Then if your actions are not racially motivated, as I suspect, we can expect to see you posting a representative number of articles in future that equally
vilify whites, blacks, christians, etc.? Don't forget to specifically mention that the perpetrators are Western European, of African extraction, Believers in Christ, etc.

Yeah, fat chance of that happening. You're a racist, matey, and you're too much of a coward to even admit it.
by ramaDUNG on Sat Apr 21, 07 4:15am [+]

It is your choice to find it complimentary to be compared to Herzog although I believe you two are one in the same...

You and Herzog find it necessary to vilify the same races (and/or their religious faith)of people, for what purpose does that serve? To make you feel empowered, superior or for sheer entertainment?

Russia shares in some of the choas and destruction in the world just as the U.S., Israel (that goes without saying for the first two mentioned), the radical Islamic groups that are giving Muslims as a whole, a bad name, the list is endless...However, you intentionally leave out those Governments that are obviously guilty and is responsible for a great deal of the destruction (nationally and internationally) in this world beyond compare...

If you would reconsider including everyone that is responsible for the utter and shameful despair as observed by all, in the world, then perhaps your commentaries would be taken more seriously by those who you directly disparage and those who find your partiality objectionable...

BTW, President Vladimir Putin holds no morally grounds of truth, justice and fair play regarding any issues of interest, he sanctions murder against his own people when they don't agree with him...


by Barbara_Baby_Cakes on Sat Apr 21, 07 1:38pm [+]

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to further clarify my stance.

Now, I just wanted to let you know, that what you accuse me of is not true. Let it be known I have never said anything of the sort that you have accused me of. I do not dislike all Muslims as you have declared. I have a great respect for Muslims. I have deep and meaningful friendships with some Muslims as well (and I'm not just saying that for the sake of it- I truly mean it when I say 'deep' friendship). The fact is, I feel a great sense of appreciation and respect for all human beings, including people who happen to be Muslim, I consider them kindred to me. However, I do believe that there are some so-called 'Muslims' that have been quite aggressive. I point this out, but that does not mean that I am trying to denounce all Muslims. That is ridiculous. To simply point out that there seems to be a trend of a significant minority of the group acting as trouble makers does not equate to an attempt to denouncing the entire group. I will repeat, I do not hate all Muslims, your accusation is false. I do not even hate the corrupted ones- they are confused and misguided.

You will probably claim that you got the impression that I dislike all Muslims. My response: I am sorry if I gave you or anyone else that impression. But it's simply not true. I don't even know how you got the impression from me merely pointing out that there is an unpleasant minority within the group in question. In any case, isn't it dangerous to take an unproved assumption and then to make grand declarations and accusations? Think about it. You have accused me of hating more than one-sixth of the world's population- 1.3 billion of our human brothers and sisters. That is a big deal, and such an allegation probably should not be thrown around quite so lightly? Anyway, I forgive you regardless of whether or not you are sorry. I have never expressed a dislike toward 'all Muslims' and I have never intended to suggest it either. If I ever have something to say, I will actually say it. I don't care for beating around the place or for implicit rhetoric. If I feel a certain way, I say it explicitly. I always state my opinion very openly and very frankly. If I am thinking something, I will state it out loud. I am very up front and straight forward about these things. I have never stated any of the such that you accused me of. Why? I have never felt that way, that's why. If one day I ever do feel that way (which I doubt), then I would straight out say it.

So why do I make ballots on the subject? To demonise all Muslims? No, not at all. I will tell you why very honestly and bluntly. I make them to bring attention to the fact that there are problems existent, that there are some so-called Muslims that are trouble makers, and probably most importantly: I am surprised at how it seems that many are too hesitant on these issues to actually address them. I do find that there are some people who are too politically correct on some of these issues. I feel I am proved so in a lot of the responses to some ballots. Muslims as a whole are not a problem. They are a great people whom follow many of the same universal principles of followers of other religions and philosophies. When it comes to denouncing the agitators of their group- most, in fact all of the Muslims I know do so very brutally, up front and straight-forward. Most Muslims, and definitely all the Muslims I know openly denounce the segments of their religious group whom are extremist. In fact, I don't know of any politically correct Muslims. All the ones I know are very direct on the issue with little 'ifs' or 'buts' to excuse the immoral behaviour of the radicals. The group that worries me therefore is not Muslims. It is the overly politically correct. The ones that have difficulty in pointing out that this corrupted segment of the Islamic community exists, the ones that often try to make excuses for and lay the blame completely off of the brutal actions of radicals, the ones that overreact to criticism of the radicals, and the ones who falsely think that criticism of individual Muslim extremists equates to criticism of 'all Muslims' and that defending the extremists is defending 'all Muslims'.

That is just how I honestly feel. That is why I make such ballots. No regrets. Thank you very much for your time.
by xxxxxxxx on Sun Apr 22, 07 2:12am [+]

"Russia shares in some of the choas and destruction in the world... If you would reconsider including everyone that is responsible for the utter and shameful despair as observed by all, in the world"

- Of course if you read the article in the ballot you would notice:

"Not all of Russia's Muslims feel so welcome.

"Of course I'm afraid," said Makhmud, a Kyrgyz man in his late 50s who moved to Moscow three months ago seeking work. "You see young men with shaved heads on the street or the metro, and you know that anything could happen."

Muslims bear brunt of escalating racist violence in Russia

Muslims bear the brunt of the escalating racist violence in Russia. Racist attacks struck 539 people last year, a 17-percent rise over 2005, the Sova analytical center said in a report last week. Nearly half of the 56 people killed in the attacks were from the North Caucasus and Central Asia - both overwhelmingly Muslim.

"Xenophobia is growing very quickly here, and Islamophobia is growing along with it and will continue to, there's no question," said Alexei Malashenko, an expert on Islam in Russia at the Carnegie Moscow Center.

Underlying the threat to Russian Muslims as individuals is a deep uncertainty that the Russian government feels about how to handle the quick rise of the faith.

President Vladimir Putin meets with Kremlin-friendly Muslim leaders regularly and underlines the centuries-old presence of Islam in Russia during his visits to traditionally Muslim countries.

But in Makhachkala, the capital of the Caucasian region of Dagestan, Imam Gasanaliyev's energetic delivery turned angry when he was asked about the government's relation to Islam.

"They hate this religion," he said, pounding his fist on the table. "There's no help, no support for us at all." "


- So the article in my ballot criticies Russian society as well. A balanced article condemning wrong-doings on both sides, yet there is only criticism of the criticism of the Islamic side. Notice, how no one condemned me for posting something that could equally be seen as 'anti-Russian' just as much as 'anti-Islamic' (even though in reality the article is neither)? That is a demonstration of the political correctness I am concerned about.

So, yes, I condemn Russia and its civilization for its backwardness as well.
by xxxxxxxx on Sun Apr 22, 07 2:22am [+]

Then IF what you say is correct, socrates - and seriously, I have my doubts - you should post ballots attacking political correctness, not other cultures.

But as I mentioned, I honestly think you're a liar. Your tongue is too deep up herzog's arsehole for that sanctimonious clap-trap about having "deep, meaningful relationships with Muslims, whom you consider kindred" to be anything other than a tissue of lies.
by ramaDUNG on Tue Apr 24, 07 11:57am [+]

PS I condemn YOU for YOUR readiness to condemn others - especially since you consider it a compliment to be mistaken for that morally-bankrupt warmongering coward, herzog.
by ramaDUNG on Tue Apr 24, 07 12:02pm [+]

Dung- "Then IF what you say is correct, socrates - and seriously, I have my doubts - you should post ballots attacking political correctness, not other cultures."

- And I have. The problem is you seem to have difficulty in distinguishing the two. For example I made a ballot I made about an Iraqi immigrant to Norway, who went to a multicultural center there, and told the director that he is interested to integrate into Norwegian culture, the director who was a white Norwegian told him not to because of his racial background. I praised the immigrant for his interest in integration, and I dismissed the white Norwegian guy's political correctness as ridiculous. Yet, somehow you managed to interpret me as trying to vilify a race, when in reality I was dismissing the political correctness for actively attempting to discourage immigrants from integrating into Norwegian culture even when they want to do so of their own free will. The fact that you took that clear situation and twisted it into a bizarre interpretation that I was trying to a vilify a race indicates something.

"especially since you consider it a compliment to be mistaken for that morally-bankrupt warmongering coward, herzog."

I believe that the four users (herzog, Cathexis, Steelhamster and truthseeker013) on my favourite user list are all very articulate, and I have a lot of respect for them because of it. So?

"But as I mentioned, I honestly think you're a liar. Your tongue is too deep up herzog's arsehole for that sanctimonious clap-trap about having "deep, meaningful relationships with Muslims, whom you consider kindred" to be anything other than a tissue of lies."

- No, it's true. Helped me through the most difficult times in my life. My Muslim friends, and all the other Muslims I've talked with, strongly condemn the extremists. Unlike the politically correct non-Muslims, like some people on this site, who think they are defending 'all Muslims' by defending the extremists.
by xxxxxxxx on Wed Apr 25, 07 6:58am [+]

"But as I mentioned, I honestly think you're a liar. Your tongue is too deep up herzog's arsehole for that sanctimonious clap-trap about having "deep, meaningful relationships with Muslims, whom you consider kindred" to be anything other than a tissue of lies."

- No, it's true. Helped me through the most difficult times in my life. My Muslim friends, and all the other Muslims I've talked with, strongly condemn the extremists. Unlike the politically correct non-Muslims, like some people on this site, who think they are defending 'all Muslims' by defending the extremists. I indeed, have deep and meaningful friendships with individuals who happen to be Muslim.
by xxxxxxxx on Wed Apr 25, 07 7:01am [+]

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