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COMMENTS:
Voted : NO
I just read the story, little more to it than just the flag being flown upside down, but I don't believe their should even be a law on the books for that, which there apparently is in North Carolina .
If it's your property your flag, should be able to do what you choose IMO.
Personally I don't like when I see a flag all tattered and torn but I don't think the owner should be arrested or given a citation . What might offend me may not offend you. People have different opinions on what's offensive. No need to go to jail for it though.
Flag-defiling charge ends in fight, arrests
Sheriff’s Office denies allegation deputy assaulted couple
by Mike McWilliams
updated July 26, 2007 11:26 am
Asheville – A couple who said they were protesting the state of the country by flying the U.S. flag upside down with signs pinned to it found themselves in jail following a scuffle with a deputy Wednesday morning.
Mark and Deborah Kuhn were arrested on two counts of assault on a government employee, resisting arrest and a rarely used charge, desecrating an American flag, all misdemeanors. The Kuhns were released from custody Wednesday afternoon.
“This is surreal,” Deborah Kuhn, 52, said moments after her son Mark Stidham paid $1,500 bond to get the couple out of jail.
Arrest reports show Buncombe County Sheriff’s deputy Brian Scarborough went to the Kuhns’ home on 68 Brevard Road about 8:45 a.m. Wednesday to investigate a complaint of an American flag on display after being desecrated.
State law prohibits anyone from knowingly mutilating, defiling, defacing or trampling the U.S. or North Carolina flags. Lt. Randy Sorrells of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office said the Kuhns desecrated the flag by pinning signs to it, not by flying it upside down.
An upside-down flag typically is flown as a distress signal. The Kuhns said they flew it this way not out of disrespect but to symbolize the state of the country.
Deborah Kuhn said the signs pinned to the flag included an explanation on the meaning of an upside-down flag and asked to “help our country.” One of the signs was a photo of President Bush with “Out Now” written on it, they said.
The couple flew the flag for about a week before Wednesday.
I hope you don't mind me pasting the article on your ballot Seon
Voted : NO
Much ado about NOTHING.
If that's worthy of arrest, how about this??
by mojo on Wed Aug 01, 07 7:29am
[+]
^ that's GWBush, by the way
by mojo on Wed Aug 01, 07 7:29am
[+]
Voted : NO
Hey larry thanks for the comment its nice to see some of the regulars from the good old days still use this site. I agree with most of your comment but I thought I’d point out that flying a flag upside down isn’t a sign of disrespect. It’s a distress call. You know like when ships do it. They even had a sign next to the flag stating it was for distress.
by seon on Wed Aug 01, 07 7:32am
[+]
Voted : YES
Because flying the flag upside-down is a universal distress sign. If I had been in the area and seen it, I would've called 911 to report an emergency and diverted emergency resources to a sitch that didn't require them, possibly placing someone at risk who *did* need those resources. If you want to protest, fine, it's your constitutional right. Just have a clue about how you do it.
I understand sean, and IMO the country is in distress
well what question are you asking a yes or no for? is it to the ballot headline question or your question "is this what america has become?" which one are you asking?
also looks like they were arrested for something totally different --
On Wednesday, a Buncombe County sheriff’s deputy, who is a member of the North Carolina National Guard, came to their door to cite them with desecration of the American flag.
The deputy said after Kuhn refused to show identification, Kuhn slammed the door on his hand, breaking a pane of glass and cutting his hand. The Kuhns said the deputy shattered the glass and let himself into their house. That was when the scuffle started.
^ see this is the problem when the full story is not given. so fact one, they were not arrested because of the flag, they were arrested for what they did when they were going to receive a citation. the whole story has to be presented here seon, not just your synopsis.
we should all be flying the flag upside down, it's a naval sign of distress, and I think the country is in a dire straits, thanks to the present administration.
by LCD on Wed Aug 01, 07 11:22am
[+]
I haven't read the story, but from the info given, no
by aya on Wed Aug 01, 07 12:05pm
[+]
I hate it when someone makes a ballot asking a question and expects ya to google for the information. It's just plain lazy.
If you can't be arsed providing the details, I can't be arsed giving an opinion. :o)
Art. 236 of the Romanian penal law punishes any offense against national emblems with prison between 6 moths and 3 years. And I think this crime is punished by many countries, so from a strictly theoretical point of view, there is nothing extraordinary about this case.
However, in order to get them punished, the prosecutors have to prove the perpetrators intentions were to offend, because simply hanging the flag upside down can't be a crime.
But I don't agree with it. Like Truth said, it's an actual distress symbol, still in use in times of actual emergencies. Not a "I'm pissed off cause my governemt's corrupt" symbol. If you wanna protest, fine. But use some intelligence and don't desecrate the meaning of it.
I voted NO. It didn't show up...
^^^Yes, but it is exactly because this is an international sign of distress, what could get them out: they were expressing their outrage against the government, not desecrating the starts and stripes, nor insulting the country.
True. I didn't mean though they were desicrating the meaning of the flag, or the country even. But desicrating the meaning of that distress symbol. I've seen it flown legitimately for that purpose, so it's just a little disrespectful to me to fly it upside-down unless you're literally waiting for someone to risk their life in helping you.
To those who voted yes America is not a police state. I’d expect this kind of thing from communist China where now you’d get thrown in jail just if a group of more then 3 people meet but America is supposed to be a constitutional republic.
How as for kev:
“The deputy said after Kuhn refused to show identification, Kuhn slammed the door on his hand, breaking a pane of glass and cutting his hand. The Kuhns said the deputy shattered the glass and let himself into their house. That was when the scuffle started.”
We have 3 witnesses who said the fascist deputy (and yes the arresting officer is a traitor and needs to be arrested for high treason or at the very least assault) kicked the door down. And by the way why should they show ID’s? They didn’t do anything illegal or do you want America do be like Nazi Germany where were forced to grovel and show our ID (or rather your ID) to the Mighty SS?
Britvic has a good point I didn’t realise I asked two questions, the is this what America has become was more of a pro American rant.
Also it’s a international sign of distress expressing their views of how America has gone downhill. So all those people saying they thought it was an SOS are wrong. Also they had signs explaining it so you’d have to be pretty silly to march into their homes with out bothering to read their signs.
by seon on Wed Aug 01, 07 7:54pm
[+]
Voted : NO
Actually the guy wasnt arrested for that at all. He was going to recieve a citation. He escelated the whole thing on his own, probably for attention.
When a cop says he is going to give you a ticket, you dont say no or you will get arrested whatever the reason.
seon, then show your factual sources. no news item i read mentioned 3 witnesses. you're being paranoid and misled.
you can't just go around making claims like you are with no evidence -- that's what facists do.
look what you're doing here --
news story says that the kuhn's claim the deputy broke the glass to let himself in. now look what you write --
"We have 3 witnesses who said the fascist deputy (and yes the arresting officer is a traitor and needs to be arrested for high treason or at the very least assault) kicked the door down."
so which is it seon? did he break the glass to let himself in, or kick the door in??
and what is this "we have three witnesses?" who is this we?
second point, the id. uhh, so you know, it is common practice in most civilized nations with a code of law that you make sure you have the right people. you know, so you don't go up to the wrong house. you must ask for identification to verify that the person you're talking to is the right person. imagine if they didn't and the guy at the door is a minor or just a guest.
so sorry seon, on this one, it's just hype and blatant misrepresentation.
besides, aren't you an australian who lives in australia? what's with this "we" stuff??
seon, then show your factual sources. no news item i read mentioned 3 witnesses. you're being paranoid and misled.
you can't just go around making claims like you are with no evidence -- that's what facists do.
look what you're doing here --
news story says that the kuhn's claim the deputy broke the glass to let himself in. now look what you write --
"We have 3 witnesses who said the fascist deputy (and yes the arresting officer is a traitor and needs to be arrested for high treason or at the very least assault) kicked the door down."
so which is it seon? did he break the glass to let himself in, or kick the door in??
and what is this "we have three witnesses?" who is this we?
second point, the id. uhh, so you know, it is common practice in most civilized nations with a code of law that you make sure you have the right people. you know, so you don't go up to the wrong house. you must ask for identification to verify that the person you're talking to is the right person. imagine if they didn't and the guy at the door is a minor or just a guest.
so sorry seon, on this one, it's just hype and blatant misrepresentation.
besides, aren't you an australian who lives in australia? what's with this "we" stuff??
"To those who voted yes America is not a police state. I’d expect this kind of thing from communist China where now you’d get thrown in jail just if a group of more then 3 people meet but America is supposed to be a constitutional republic."
cuz seon, not all of us are paranoid to the point of being irrational. some of prefer to deal in facts and not in dark and dreary conspiracy theory blogs where some nut named chester rants about the united nations taking over america.
Another article from prison planet (and before you start ranting about how I’m a "kook" for using that as a source maybe you should do the research yourself) makes the claim: Contradicting the police's account of the incident, that Buncombe County
Sheriff's deputy Brian Scarborough was injured when the Kuhn's slammed the
door on his hand, Deborah Kuhn vehemently maintains that Scarborough smashed
the glass of their door with his bare fist before breaking in, a description
which is backed up by three other eyewitnesses, one of which appeared on TV
later that day.
Of course you could just discount that little fact because it appears on a “kook” site oh and I said nothing about the UN taking over the world. I just think if America really was the land of the free and the home of a brave something like this would have never happened. But you can go back to putting your head in the sand if you want.
by seon on Thu Aug 02, 07 1:27am
[+]
^ seon, reality check. of course prison planet would post that. not like the citizen-times, which presented both sides of the story but didn't try to force one side or the other as being truthful or not. so you decide which sources are better -- ones that use hysterical hearsay and rumor and never names their sources, or ones that present the facts as they are -- as they really are and that is that this is all about "he said, she said."
Deborah Kuhn vehemently maintains that Scarborough smashed
the glass of their door with his bare fist before breaking in, a description
which is backed up by three other eyewitnesses, one of which appeared on TV
later that day.
^ well then who are they? name them. if it's true there should be no reason to not name these eye witnesses. look seon, saying there are eye witnesses to back these claims up doesn't make it true. naming them and naming the newspaper or tv station they gave their story to does. so why not just name these 3 eye witnesses. i mean after all, if one of them appeared on tv, it's not like they're keeping their identity secret. and so you know, one of the kuhns involved does not make an eye witness, since they are involved in the incident ;)
Voted : NO
Upside down U.S. flag is a universal distress call.
There is still hope for america!
Flag charges dropped
Sheriff: Deputy shouldn't have been at scene
Mike McWilliams and Adam Behsudi
CITIZEN-TIMES.COM
Friday Aug 3, 2007
Related: Couple Terrorized, Assaulted and Arrested For Flying
an Upside Down U.S. Flag
ASHEVILLE- Buncombe County's sheriff and district attorney
have dropped charges against a couple accused of desecrating
the American flag, saying they stood little chance in court.
The Sheriff's Office will continue an investigation into the
actions of Deputy Brian Scarborough, who issued the charges
after a complaint from a fellow National Guardsman, Sheriff
Van Duncan said Thursday.
Duncan said he "had rather we responded to that call
differently" and that Scarborough "probably shouldn't have
been there to begin with."
The sheriff said he asked District Attorney Ron Moore to drop
the charges against Mark and Deborah Kuhn, who also said the
deputy assaulted them.
The Kuhns had pinned signs to an upside down American flag
that included a photo of President Bush with "Out now" written
on it.
Their case marked only the third time in North Carolina since
1917 that the state's flag desecration statute had been
enforced, according to the N.C. Administrative Office of the
Courts.
U.S. Supreme Court decisions in 1989 and 1990 protected flag
desecration as a form of expressive conduct under the First
Amendment. The state law also was challenged and ruled
unconstitutional in 1971.
"It's pretty apparent to us where the Supreme Court stands on
this issue (flag desecration)," Duncan said. "Also, it has
been dealt with in this state in 1971, and we do not feel like
we can successfully prosecute the desecration of the flag
statute."
Scarborough issued charges against the Kuhns on July 25 at
their Brevard Road home in Asheville.
An ensuing scuffle with the deputy put the Kuhns in jail on
charges of assault on a government employee, obstruction and
flag desecration, all misdemeanors.
Debbie Kuhn said Thursday she was relieved all charges had
dropped but wants to the deputy who charged them fired.
Scarborough could not be reached.
The flag confiscated by the Sheriff's Office was returned.
Kuhn said she and her husband plan to post their flag again.
It also will be flown upside down but not until the Sheriff's
Office investigation is done.
"We do want to give Sheriff Duncan the chance to do the right
thing," Kuhn said.
The couple have not filed a formal complaint with the
Sheriff's Office, she said.
Duncan said he hoped the internal investigation would be done
next week. The office has received "hundreds" of phone calls
from people expressing both support and anger at Scarborough's
actions, Duncan said.
As it's written in the code, state law prohibits anyone from
knowingly mutilating, defiling, defacing or trampling the U.S.
or North Carolina flags. The Kuhns have said they were
displaying the flag upside down to protest the state of the
country. An upside down flag is a universal distress signal.
The Sheriff's Office has said the signs pinned to the flag,
not the fact that it was flying upside down, led to the
charges.
Sheriff's reports allege the Kuhns assaulted Scarborough as he
was trying to place them under arrest, including slamming the
door, breaking a glass pane and cutting the deputy's hand.
The Kuhns said Scarborough broke into their house and violated
their civil rights.
"The stories of the people who saw the incident and the
deputy's stories are very, very close," Duncan said.
Mark Radford, a staff sergeant in the National Guard's
Asheville-based 105th Military Police Battalion, is the one
who told Scarborough about the Kuhns' flag. Radford would not
comment Thursday.
Someone, not Radford, had complained to Asheville police about
the Kuhns' flag days before their arrest. The city police
officer investigated but did not issue a citation.
Duncan said it's normal practice to refer calls within city
limits to Asheville police unless a crime is committed in the
deputy's presence or in an emergency.
Scarborough, 25, started at the Sheriff's Office in 2003 as a
reserve deputy. He was hired full time June 13, after serving
seven months in Iraq with the National Guard.
"Whether we agree with someone's actions whether or not to
hang the flag upside down, it does seem to be the intention of
the Supreme Court, which is the supreme law of the land, to
allow that," Duncan said. "So in other words, the Kuhns are
allowed to do what they're doing.
"On the other side of that, if it weren't for young men like
Deputy Scarborough, we wouldn't have those rights."
Duncan said the District Attorney's Office likely could have
prosecuted the Kuhns on the assault and obstruction charges.
Duncan said he wanted to make amends with both sides and bring
closure to the issue.
"I don't think we gain anything by dividing the charges and
going on," Duncan said. "We feel like the sooner we can move
on from this, the better all parties involved will be."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/030807dropped.
htm
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=
2007708030306
by seon on Sat Aug 04, 07 8:01pm
[+]
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