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COMMENTS:
I also know many Americans get so defensive when anyone dares to bring up flaws in our country, I don't think that's a good thing to do, I think we need to admit our flaws so we can fix, saying we're number 1 over and over does not help the problems. That's my opinion for what it's worth.
Voted : I agree with the BBC report
Lol at choice #3. Wish I could give karma, Larry, you keep making great ballots.
by mojo on Mon Aug 13, 07 6:19am
[+]
larry i'm not sure what you're talking about. not at all trying to judge you or anything but you seem kind of unahppy. you're comparing it to western europe but on what? not seeing what you're specifically referring to. plus people who come here from much of the world live vastly better lives than they did at home. they'd live vastly better lives in western europe too.
but i just am not following your train of thought here. sorry man.
Voted : I agree with the BBC report
From a health-care standpoint alone...
I also know many Americans get so defensive when anyone dares to bring up flaws in our country, I don't think that's a good thing to do, I think we need to admit our flaws so we can fix, saying we're number 1 over and over does not help the problems. That's my opinion for what it's worth.
by larrynelmira on Mon Aug 13, 07 5:36am
^ totally. but you're not saying what they are so it's tought to get our mind around it.
people came here in the millions for a better life and they got it. people from western europe too. but you must be thinking that people in the u.k, or italy or germany aren't saying the very things you are about the u.s.a about their own countries. of course they are larry. what you're complaining about, so are they. it's not like some utopia. and not to be a jerk, but the bbc is renowned for being less than fair when dealing with amercia.
but if you're unhappy here, then you should spend a year or so and travel around and you're going to find out what i did -- that in every country all over the world, people have the same issues we do and say the same things you're saying about their own countries.
larry, here's the bbc piece. it's from 2005
Stark reality of the American dream
By Humphrey Hawksley
BBC News, United States
Humphrey Hawksley asks whether that once universal idea of the American dream still exists.
It was a brilliant, hot day on the Seattle waterfront, with unspoilt views across the sound to outlying islands.
Just beyond a stretch of grass where people lay with books and lovers, came the melody of live unaccompanied singing from deep within the bustle of the nearby Pike Market.
It turned out to be four men outside a cafe singing a love song about Cupid, each with different voice ranges, and a deep, swaying crowd, clapping along.
The Starbucks logo of the cafe struck me as a little old-fashioned until someone mentioned that this was the first Starbucks ever opened anywhere in the world.
I had come to Seattle because of a recent survey by the Centre for Economic Performance in London, on how easy or difficult it was to get rich in different parts of the world - or if not rich, at least move out of poverty.
"If you are born into poverty in the US," said one of its authors, "you are actually more likely to remain in poverty than in other countries in Europe, the Nordic countries, even Canada, which you would think would not be that different."
Possibilities
The study, together with general anti-American sentiment which has become more prevalent since the Iraq war, raised for me a question about the American dream - the idea that the United States is a place where anything is possible.
I had chosen Seattle not only because Starbucks was created there, but also because Microsoft and Amazon Books and Boeing airliners all come from this small city. Dreams, if you want, which began small but are now global brands.
"Great day, isn't it?" I turned to see the lined, and drawn face of a man I will call Dave.
"Are you getting what you want?"
We had met a couple of days earlier when he was having breakfast at a charity for the broke and homeless, and I had asked him if he believed in the American dream.
"The American dream," Dave said, eating a muffin and wiping his lips with a paper napkin.
"Well, it comes and goes. It will come again."
Winners and losers
In a low-ceilinged eating hall, maybe 100 men sat side by side along trestle tables.
They had queued up since five, registered in case there was any work, then ate while security guards watched over them in case there was trouble.
In Europe or just across the border in Canada, they would be more likely to get social security, but this was America, where society is starkly divided into winners and losers.
Strangely, though, there seemed to be little resentment or blame of government. American culture is about self-reliance and the individual fighting a way through.
"The American dream," said one of the men, his eyes dartingly alive, his nose so skewed it must have been broken many times in different fights.
"I guess you are talking about a home, wife, children and all that."
"Do you have it?" I said.
"No. No. I don't. I had my opportunities, but I lost."
Control
Just up the road in a small print shop, a fit, thoughtful former air force officer, Bobby Ray Forbes, was slotting calendars into envelopes.
In America, I felt a sentiment that the more say the government has over you, the more you carry a sense of failure.
His life collapsed when his marriage went wrong. He had ended up on the street, but recently had managed to get a job and keep it.
"Oh sure, I have had the house, picket fence, two cars," he said.
"But I put myself in a position where the government could take control. Right now I am happy just being back in control. You see, what a lot of people do not know is that the key is not getting the American dream. It is holding onto it."
In Europe, the government is entwined with a lot of what we do, yet in America, I felt a sentiment that the more say the government has over you, the more you carry a sense of failure.
Yet millions still yearn to come and take up the challenge.
A million a year settle to start the process of becoming American citizens. Half a million actually take the oath.
Flag waving
At the landscaped Seattle centre, using cards and newspapers to shield themselves from the sun, rows and rows of immigrants at a naturalisation ceremony listened to local officials speak about various aspects of the American dream.
They came from everywhere: Britain, France, Iran, Iraq - the name of every country read out, to cheers, as if we were at the Oscars and, of course, the waving of American flags.
"Why do you want to live here and not in Europe?" I asked a young woman from Ethiopia, who tipped back her Seattle Mariners baseball cap and looked at me as if I were completely mad.
"Europe," she said disdainfully.
"What do they ever hope for in Europe? Here they have a law that you can dream to be happy."
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Thursday, 18 August, 2005 at 1100 BST on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times.
I'm very happy and because I make a ballot about a BBC report does not mean I'm unhappy, they compared living standards, chances of achieving, and found in many of the Western Euopean countries, are more likly to achieve what they considered the American dream. The definition I gave. I'm sure I could travel to any country on the planet and find people who are worse off than I am, I can walk 2 blocks down the street and find people worse off than I am, I made a ballot about a BBC report and asked if you all thought it was true or not, your free disagree with the report. Nothing wrong with making ballots about BBC report, ABC report or any other news media. My father makes less money than his father did even with the overtime, many of my friends parents are in same situation, that doesn’t mean I’m unhappy, just stating what I see.
Actually kev, with all due respect, I resent a little that just because I decide to make a ballot that shows a report little critical toward America, does not mean I must be unhappy, it means I’m looking at all views .
larry don't resent it. read the ballot. you didn't give any specifics. i couldn't get my arms around your point because you didn't give any details. so are you saying that if it was some report on the bbc it has to be true and gospel?
i was just saying that if you had given some actual examples i could have maybe related to what you were trying to say.
that's why i posted the actual news piece -- to try and get a perspective of what you're talking about. sorry man, but it's just how i interpreted it.
and they concluded, you are more likely to achieve the American Dream in Western Europe than in America.
Definition of the American Dream being
"The widespread aspiration to live better than your parents , that through hard work, and determination one could achieve prosperity"
That is what the report concluded and I asked if you agreed or disagreed.
^ but based on what? my point is just that you can't make that determination if you've never been to europe. we don't live there. and everyone's definition of the dream is different. i said you seemed unhappy in the sense of "unhappy with the way things are." no you being unhappy in general.
i can't agree or disagree and i doubt any european or american could either. what are the stats? people today in general are much more prosperous than their parents. it's pretty much a fact but that doesn't mean anything. prices are different, real estate is worth more, science is better now, medical technology is better now, travel is better now, communications are better now. see my point? what are we basing it on? there are so many factors that anyone who agrees or disagrees is doing so only on the most personal level. that doesn't make it true for everyone.
^ For f*cks sake! Just vote for choice #3 and be done with it.  
Voted : other
don't know
stats and studies are unreliable you said so yourself, if I remember correctly they compared a percentage of people in UK for example with those in USA, were they better off than their parents, etc, in UK yes, in USA no. It was a tv program, I didn’t take notes, that’s the reason I said they could be right or wrong, I only stated their conclusion.
If the question was reversed, more likely to achieve in USA than in UK, would we be having this debate?
larry we're having this debate becaue its right to have it. i don't disagree with the bbc report but i also posted it so it puts it into perspective. the debate is -- what is your definition of a 'dream" life. if you think they have a utopia in the u.k for example, they don't. just read the papers. if you think it's a utopia anywhere you're wrong.
so i disagree with the premsie.
"they compared a percentage of people in UK for example with those in USA, were they better off than their parents, etc, in UK yes, in USA no"
based on what? quality of life? finances? size of house? you can't compare the two. it's 60 million people vs. a huge country with 300 million people. theres so many variables to consider.
i'm not trying to change you mind larry, i'm telling you that for me, i can't make any kind of determination on it. and as for the u.k, they have as many problems as we do. and don't forget my s.o is british.
as for you britvic, let's not even go there since we all can take a look at the ballots about the u.k and see you's all just a bunch of flag-wavin yah-hoos like us -- you just have nicer accents. 
and yeah larry, if the question was reveresed i'd be asking the same question. don't lower yourself by asking such a rude question.
and what is this bit about it being a report? it was a freaking comentary not a scientific report. the guys' print piece is right there below for everyone to read. we are discussing it britvic, but apparently having an open mind is a crime. geesh man, talk about being p.c. to the extreme.
yeah, fuck it. if it's bad about the u.s.a it must be true. never mind having a freaking brain. what pisses me off with these debates is that some of you get angry when it's challenged and all of a sudden, those of us raising legitimate debate are the ones not wanting to discuss it? huh? and that's logical how?
I never said it was true, I said I don't know , I'm not going to dismiss it just because it makes US look bad.
Lol, Kev, the joke was right there.
There! You made me point it out, didn't ya? Ol' chap. :o)
... and it's not me being pc either. I don't much care either way.
^ you keep poking me with that stick and it's going in your ass actually i could so make a joke with that whole "poking with a stick" thing, but nah, it's too easy. how about you take a crack at it?
^ okay, we got the following elements -- stick, ass, poking and crack.
work with that bud.
I remember in college, chinese MBA graduate students were planning to return to Hong Kong in time for the Chinese takeover.
I thought they were insane. Now I know better. I heard that they are now global jet-set, but under Chinese flag.
so not only europe, but southeast asia as well methinks.
by LCD on Mon Aug 13, 07 2:47pm
[+]
man you guys must all be busted or something? are you all that really bad off? wow. maybe you should all travel more and see the reality. oh wait, that's right, you can't. 
you know in russia, they had a huge boom too. then it all went pfft. now a very narrow minority is reaping the wealth, while the rest are broke. kind of like it is in asia. so that's the dream? that a very few have it all, while the majority live in outright poverty? at least in europe and the usa the wealth is more evenly distributed. some of you peeps really need to get a reality check.
www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/02/business/AS-GEN-Asia-UN-Fighting-Poverty.php
^ check it out.
Wow, Kev's on a mission. ;o)
we have to worry about getting are prescriptions filled , can't afford to globe trot
Voted : other
As the saying goes, "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence..."
right larry and most of the people in asia get by on a $1 a day. they need to scrounge up enough food to feed their family just 1 x per day. just one meal. not 3. just one. but hey, they're living la vida loca, right?
I never mentioned Asia in any of my comments, you assume I think all outside of USA is better. You ask us to see the world, I answered I can't because my medication is more important.
Everyone knows what's going on in many parts of the world as far as hunger and poverty, but thanks for reminding us.
^^^^ (our) I just noticed that, surprised someone didn't bring to my attention.
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