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COMMENTS:
this is a tasteless ballot. and in either case, fuck you too. what an ahole.
Really? You'd rather innocent people die than soldiers from an aggressive country? Just because the innocent people are foreign, yes? You don't like foreigners?
Would you feel the same way if it were the other way round? If Iraq had attacked the USA for its oil supply, would you rather a US citizen died than an Iraqi soldier?
^ country? excuse me, but i believe that based on your ballot premise, that would be plural. either way, i think you're an asshole.
wow^^^^
If grown-ups aren't ready to look past flags and realize that humans are starting to fight over resources then there is no hope for our future. The point of 9/11 was to take us to war in the middle East, this is the truth, no matter who did it and no matter who's profited the most from it. It's like poetry when we defend the people who are shitting away our future for God or for money :p
Heck, don't even try imagining what it means for thousands to starve to death every day.. and the animals' mass extinction isn't important either :)
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 3:57pm
[+]
^ hey jyl, that's your opinion. stick to it if you want. but come at us with some fucked up ballot about whether its better for british or americans to die or iraqis and your'e as big a fat fucking asshole as keithsheen. so which is it? huh? cuz if you even try to defend him and this ballot, then you can go straight to hell too.
it's not my thing here to defend Anyone.
Thanks for your words.
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 4:41pm
[+]
^ then you should take a stand. you really don't see something so reprehensible about his entire ballot premise? come on jyl.
my "wow" was over the hot fight that got started up there.. but I guess you're asking me to say that civilians' deaths aren't important? should I say that war is good, would that make it better?
I don't really know (or want to know) either of you guys, maybe if I did I'd understand.. But I don't care to.
I stand behind every word I said up there (whether it was typed in the right place or not) Watching what people say on B&W only proves what I know, over and over and over. Calling me names might teach me more or a lesson though, give it a shot!
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 5:02pm
[+]
my "wow" was over the hot fight that got started up there.. but I guess you're asking me to say that civilians' deaths aren't important?
^ are you freaking kiddig me!! what the hell? if you can't see tha the ballot question in general is absolutely outrageous than i don't know. don't go putting words in my mouth jyl. keithsheen was pretty clear, jyl -- "
THE AMERICAN AND BRITISH FORCES KILLED IN IRAQ. TOO MANY OR TOO FEW? "
if you want to play games here, we're done. so let me play your game -- "gee jyl, i guess you think more american and british deaths should happen, cuz, gee, they signed up for it and all."
so is it okay for me to play games jyl and hint that your position is that iraqi deaths are far more tragic than those of american and british service personnel? so okay if i say that?
Calling me names might teach me more or a lesson though, give it a shot!
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 5:02pm
^ gee jyl, did i call you names? huh? did i? where? go ahead and copy and paste those names i called you. go ahead. come on. show em jyl. show the "names" i called you. you know, i call people on their bs. so you go right ahead and list out the names i called you. i'll wait.
fucked up ballot about whether its better for british or americans to die or iraqis and your'e as big a fat fucking asshole as keithsheen.
^ oh, you mean this? well, you haven't made your position clear, have you? so until you tell me that you don't think that more british and american deaths are "okay" like the ballot maker is stating, then i stand by it. the emphasis being on my word "if." see the distinction jyl? so once you make your position clear, in fact, no name calling has taken place. tell us that you agree with keithsheen's sick ballot premise and well, then, sorry to say, the conclusion speaks for itself. so far you haven't really said much.
mm no, and I don't think that's what I said.
I also don't think I tried putting words in anyone's mouth or calling names to prove my point.
I read the title of the ballot as meaning too many or too few to make simps think about what we're doing.. what the real achievement will be, who's really profiting most from all the deaths (on both/all sides) and how many deaths it might take to make people think for themselves. But I guess I read everything through my depressing Big-Picture glasses.. I guess the person who made the ballot really did mean more soldiers should die (?) but looking at their words I thought they meant something bigger than what you're fighting about.
And I haven't paid attention to personal battles around here, and maybe it *is all about US vs them.. maybe he really did mean civilians who aren't American are more important than all our soldiers, I hope you know that is not something I'd argue about except maybe with a 7-year-old.
Excuse me for slipping some hard truth in but civilians and soldiers are the same to war profiteers.
I don't expect to be understood at B&W, and no amount of name-calling from B&W'ers has ever changed what I have learned since 9/11.
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 6:07pm
[+]
(WOW I can't keep up, sorry! My reply was to the first question. sheese, lemme catch up..)
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 6:07pm
[+]
(you found the sweet name-calling I see.. you told me to go straight to hell too.
NOT that I care.. I hope you know how funny it is to me (or maybe I should keep that part to myself))
by Jyl on Sun Aug 19, 07 6:11pm
[+]
jyl, long story short, keithsheen's ballot premise is pure evil in my opinion. as evidence by his own words --
"I'm pretty well adjusted, morally, I think, and pretty intelligent. I wish no-one would die. But if anyone has to, I'd rather it were a US or UK soldier who signed on the dotted line that they were prepared to risk their life for their country (and its outrageous oil-grabbing don't-care-who-dies policy), than an innocent Iraqi citizen who's just trying to live their life."
and
"Who's with me and who thinks I'm the face of evil? In the latter case, f**k you. "
if my finding this to be so sick that it is indefensible makes me an asshole or whatever, then i'd rather be an asshole cuz i don't know where he gets the idea that he's "pretty well adjusted morally" as he claims -- way i was raised, his feelings on this topic basically make him an uncaring and viscious cretin.
I think there should be a gradual phased withdrawal of US troops. Not a cut and run, but phased in over enough time for the Iraqis to train and replace US troops with Iraqi troops.
Voted : way too many people killed
Interesting ballot.
by mojo on Mon Aug 20, 07 4:43am
[+]
This is such a hard ballot to respond to, I always feel terrible and sad when civilians are killed in any war and of course I do with the Iraqis, I also feel terrible and sad when American or British troops are killed. If you asked me to say, who should die, this innocent Iraqi civilian or the American soldier, I don't know what I would do, I really don't believe I could choose, I would probably say shoot me instead.
If you asked me who should die, this Chechnya civilian or this Russian soldier, I think without hesitation I would say the Russian soldier or vice versa.
Hypocritical of me, of course it is, but even though I am so against the war in Iraq, caring about our troops is part of my wiring, like caring for a family member.
Maybe Keith is able to disconnect from country and feel like I do with The Russian and Chechnyans .
I remember drinkaholic once made a ballot saying she didn’t feel sorry for the American troops in Iraq, she apologized for feeling that way, but that didn’t offend me, because I believe she was looking at it as my example of the Russian troops, she can disconnect.
Do I have a problem with this ballot? Yes, because for me when you say .....
“But if anyone has to, I'd rather it was an US or UK soldier who signed on the dotted line”
It’s like saying you would rather one of my family member’s dies, I know you aren’t saying that Keith, but because I can’t disconnect, I feel that way.
I don’t know if any of what I just said makes sense to you all, a lot of rambling
^because I can't disconnect from country, I feel that way
When I said "who should die" really wasn't worded right, if no choice one had to die would have been better, because I don't believe anyone "SHOULD" die
when in the 20teens our whole continent is sharing the same currency and our constitution is garbage and the same bankers are still profitting from even bigger military occupations in the middle East.. then, remember this discussion and our argument over who's innocent life is worth more.
by Jyl on Mon Aug 20, 07 6:15am
[+]
^ well that's sort of my point. i might not have made it as clearly as i'd like to have, but innocent life is innocent life. i just can't pathom asking the question or making the statement that a solider killed is somehow less important that a civilian. maybe a solution would be to make the politicians who make the war go and fight for a few months? i just could not answer this question.
Re: larrynelmira: "It’s like saying you would rather one of my family members dies, I know you aren’t saying that Keith, but because I can’t disconnect, I feel that way."
I appreciate that Larry. Somehow, I can disconnect. Human beings are human beings and I don't think we should have waged this war.
You also said:
"When I said 'who should die' really wasn't worded right, if no choice one had to die would have been better, because I don't believe anyone "SHOULD" die"
Well that's what I said in my initial blurb. So I don't think I deserve the wrath that Kev24 has offered. I would really rather no-one died.
Re: Pink Panther...
"How can anyone read and agree with the third paragraph?"
Well if you were an Iraqi and your friends and family who wanted nothing to do with the whole situation had been killed, along with a six-figure number of other innocent civilians.... I think then you would agree with the third paragraph.
If and when, Pink, you develop a morality that extends outside of blind nationalism, then maybe you'll know where I'm coming from. I won't hold my breath.
Kev24: Furthermore, the press in this country (UK) has commented several times (and this is what inspired the ballot) that perhaps the most shocking thing about this war is not how many US and UK troops have died, but how few. I'm far from alone in my humanitarian views. I realise you're far from alone in your mperialistic, nationalistic, borderline-racist views, but I think you're living in the past. So does most of the world.
Open your mind, keithsheen. You are not always right.
Re: blacklava "Open your mind, keithsheen. You are not always right."
I have never thought for a second that I am always right. Well, not since I was an arrogant teenager. I'm nearly 40 now.
Please tell me what you think, rather than just telling me I'm wrong, and I promise I will consider it with what I think is an open mind. I am always trying to open my mind. Just telling me I got it wrong is not going to help. Tell me what YOU think. I'll give it a lot of thought, whether I agree with it or not.
I think perhaps it is the people with closed minds who blindly support the USA and the UK without considering the views of the Iraqis and Afghanistanis, etc.
Re: Kev "i might not have made it as clearly as i'd like to have, but innocent life is innocent life."
I think if you read my initial post again, you'll realise that's exactly what I was trying to say. Please also note that I said I wish no-one should die.
"i just can't pathom asking the question or making the statement that a solider killed is somehow less important that a civilian."
I never said less important. I just lost my mother and I've lost good friends and other family. I've not lost a child and that must be THE WORST. I know how hard it is to lose someone you love.
All I pointed out was that there are soldiers who sign up for war and know that they're risking their lives.
And then there are innocent citizens in Iraq who wanted no part of this war, who never signed anything. And at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians die for every US and UK soldier. Bombed for bombing's sake. For Dubya and Tony Blair to justify their actions, thousands of families lose fathers, mothers or children.
The point I was trying to make was that 3000+ American soldiers have died and nearly 1000 UK soldiers. But if you think for a second that the families and friends of the 100,000+ dead Iraqis somehow don't feel the pain as much then you're very very wrong. We're all human. And 99% of those Iraqis never signed up for a dangerous career. They were attacked by an enemy from overseas who was, admit it or not, after their oil.
"maybe a solution would be to make the politicians who make the war go and fight for a few months?"
I agree totally with you. We're not really so different in our views Kev.
I look forward to your response. I'm not such an ogre, you know.
Keithsheen.
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