COMMENTS:
Whateverhappens, I know the 'English translation' or 'copyist' errors...but as for 'real error'...NONE!
Did you want the 'English translation' or 'copyist' errors? I can give 'em to you later tonight. =)
Also, after correcting these 'English translation' and 'copyist' errors, the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic would be WITHOUT a single error, not even grammatical. Regards!
Well, at the council of Nicea the church leaders got together to cut out parts of the bible that didn't fall in line with church doctrine. I think that's fairly significant when arguing the accuracy of the current version of the bible.
Herzog, I believe whatever happens was asking about a specific verse.
I bet you like Leviticus, where it says you can sell your daughters into slavery- Gods down with that, right? :D
And you can kill your neighbor if he works on Sunday.
And you cant cut your hair, and you cant eat pigs, you can be stoned and killed in public for that stuff, hehe its a laugh riot, I think we should start taking every word of it literally, and we should go back to living in caves!! :D
by x__ on Mon Apr 19, 04 10:42pm
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EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
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ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Etc, etc, etc . . .
Just type in 'contradictions in the bible' on google, or something similiar. It's not that hard.
x__ said: 'Leviticus, where it says you can sell your daughters into slavery'
First and foremost, it should be noted that the Bible does not commend slavery; rather, it recognizes the reality of slavery. In the ancient world where slavery flourished, the Mosaic Law thus stipulated stringent guidelines such as a year of Jubilee in which slaves were released (Lev. 25:40). In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel's liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created innately equal (see Gen. 1:27; Acts 17:2628; Gal. 3:28).
Furthermore, slavery within an Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could, thus, use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exod. 23:3).
Finally, we should note that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The apostle Paul goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Tim.1:10). Indeed, slavery is so abhorrent to God that in the final book of the Bible, He condemns the evil systems that perpetuate it. Jesus sums it all perfectly, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." (CONTINUED...)
x__ said: 'And you can kill your neighbor if he works on Sunday'
Nowhere to be found, rather, this is what I found: Leviticus 24:17
'And he that kills any man shall surely be put to death'
x__ said: 'you can't eat pigs, you can be stoned and killed in public for that stuff'
I posted this on the other ballot, to explain why eating certain kinds of animals were forbidden long ago: Certain animals are not fit for human food, and because of the nature of their flesh, slowly but certainly, break down the human system bringing on illness. Ingestion of the genetic code of such animals would obviously cause mutation of genes in the human body. This explains how Adam and Eve's first few generations reached the age of hundreds of years. Adam and Eve were created perfect genetically and pollution at that time is obviously almost zero. Their children would also, no doubt, be born genetically perfect. Therefore, Cain's wife was one of his sisters with no problems. Likewise, many of Adam and Eve's children have inter-married with no genetical problems, unlike humans get now in incest. God, therefore, had to temporarily allow intra-family marriages to increase the population.(CONTINUED...)
...and regarding the 'stoning to death', why do you, unbelievers, always blame God for the wickedness of men? Please read on...
Bible skeptics like you oftenly accuse God for the wickedness of men. You allege that God is cruel and heartless; this assessment simply is not true if you read and understand the Bible in its entirety (which I doubt will ever happen to some hopeless individuals). In the first place, in the Decalogue that was given to the Israelites, the command, "Thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13) undoubtedly referred to murder. taking the law into one's own hands and murdering one's fellow man. The Law of Moses certainly never intended for this commandment to be understood that the taking of human life always is wrong, regardless of the circumstance. Leviticus 24:17 "Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death", clarifies this point. God, Himself, implemented the death penalty directly on various people throughout human history and also required others to do it.
Secondly, if you would only take the time to study the Bible and make an honest evaluation of the principles of God's justice, wrath, and love, he or she would see the perfect and harmonious relationship between them. He is perfect in all His attributes: perfect in justice, love, and anger. Just as God's ultimate and final condemnation of sinners to eternal punishment will be just and appropriate (Matthew 13:41-42; 25:41), so this temporal judgment of wicked people in the Old Testament is ethical and fair. Human beings do not have an accurate grasp on the gravity of sin and the deplorable nature of evil and wickedness. Human sentimentality is hardly a qualified measuring stick for divine truth and spiritual reality.
But our wickedness has found its match in the New Testament. Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross. (2 Cor 5:21) "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
(1 Peter 2:24) "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
(Rom. 8:3-4) "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.
(Eph. 2:8-9) "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
Sorry guys, I had to throw the Gospel, I couldn't resist it. Besides, that's my duty as a Christian, to share the good news. If you mock me and curse me and ridicule me or even slap me on the face for doing this, I will humbly accept all of them. I have no intentions to pull you into a 'religion', this is something between you and God...alone. It's all upto you.
Herzog, I believe I have also answered your query:
'EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.'
Did I make any sense? Or you hearts are just totally hardened by the secular world we're living in?
herzog said:
'ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers...
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'
Herzog committed the common mistake of Bible critics. Didn't you read the entire chapter of Deuteronomy 24? Obviously not. You just decided to completely ignore the context. But let's tackle Isaiah 14:21 first; similar verses can be found in Exodus 20:5 and in Exodus 34:6-7. Covenantally, when a father misleads his family, the effects of that misleading are often felt for generations. This is because the father is being covenantally unfaithful and God has stipulated that there are punishments to breaking the covenant with God. If a father rejects the covenant of God and takes his family into sin and rejects God, the children will suffer the consequences, often for several generations. Sin is in the world consequences of sin effected many generations. But the ultimate answer for this is (1 Corinthians 15:22) "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
On the other hand, Deuteronomy 24:16 (which you totally took out of context) deals with legal matters and the Law of the Pentateuch within the Jewish court system. Similar verse is found in Ezekiel 18:20.
Therefore, no error, no contradiction.
Also remember that there are indeed five 'English translation' or 'copyist' errors in some versions of the Bible. However, after correcting these 'English translation' and 'copyist' errors, the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic would be WITHOUT a single error, not even grammatical. The originals are God-inspired, NOT the copies.
It is also what the Bible is saying that I find absurd.
How can you question what you cant even comprehend???
Come on! God is this HUGE dude who created EVERYTHING! We are tiny, pathetic humans, with tiny pathetic brains, and WE'RE questioning the bible? We don't even know HALF of it! We will never know the full amount! Even if i wasn't a Christian, id be like, "woa, the universe is humungous, and here i stand, little me, and i think i know what the truth is", whatever. Its impossible. Thinking we know the truth is just a waste of time. Its just way too big man!
Its just way too huge to vote about... No-one will ever know!
unfortunately, Yes...Which is why as Christians, we try our HARDEST to get people to believe. Even if some Christians go over board and do more damage than good. Cos we know Jesus loves the non-Christians just as He loves the Christians, we know that He DOESN'T want them to go to hell, but He has given everyone a choice, and when ur faced with the truth and you reject it, you've made ur choice. Does that make any sence? Well, anyway, we try get people saved so they can share in the promise God gave us in the beginning - Eternity in Heaven. Which is not boring worship all the time, just by the way. We will worship God by our life-styles. We'll rule city's and stuff. Be people like we are now. But in Heaven. Isn't that cool!
I'm an 18 year old female. Sorry if i bored you. Will go now.
Guest_b5cc8 said: 'If the Bible is without any inconsistencies does that mean we have to be a Christian or suffer eternity in Hell?'
If you REJECT with all your heart that Jesus Christ is the one and true Messiah of mankind, the redeemer of all, and the one who sacrified for ALL our sins...I'm afraid this is the inevitable thing to look forward to. Read the Bible, my friends, and instead of looking for its mistakes (which you will find none), why don't you look for the truth. Open its pages with a humble heart, with the yearning to discover God's purpose for your life, and I can assure you, the truth will be revealed to you the way it was revealed to me when I was still an atheist. Pride and disobedience is the fall of the very first man, I hope you don't commit the same mistake.
God has made a way to relate to us through the prophets of the Bible hundreds and thousands of years ago, all you need to do now is listen and obey.
If you mock me now, if you ridicule me now, or if you strike me on my face now, what does that make you? But these things I have already suffered and endured, and I am prepared to encounter a lot more. For Jesus said it Himself: "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." (Matthew 24:9)
Oh yes, I promise, I'll explain this to you, when I get home.
One quick question though, Matt. In responding to your questions, would you be offended if I quote some Bible verses as I go along? If so, it's perfectly fine with me not to. Later!
and Earth is the center of the universe. And Man's book is the only truth. Okay I'm convinced.
by x__ on Tue Apr 20, 04 8:47pm
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x__, did I, or anyone here ever say that Earth is the center of the universe? That statement is already proven false as everybody knows that in our solar system alone, the sun is its center, even a child knows that. And what were you referring to when you uttered 'Man's book'? Is that the Bible? I don't recall exclaiming that the Bible is the only book of truth. I regard several books of science and philosophy to be truthful. But if the subject is God, then, yes, the Bible is the only book of truth a propos Him.
(still waiting for Matt's^ response to my question)
Guest_30bc4 said: 'Does the bible explain the origin of the far eastern people? There is no mention of Asians in the bible is there?'
The term 'Asian' or 'Far Eastern' is what the modern world say it. The Bible did not mention these exact terms because the groupings and classifications of the ancient people were called differently, but they were indeed what we call the Asians and the Far Eastern race of today. In fact, Adam and Eve, Noah, Shem, Ham and Japeth, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all from the continent Asia. The two oldest known civilizations, Egypt and Mesopotamia, were both in the Middle East. We can therefore conclude that the 'Garden of Eden' was somewhere in the Middle East. Which ever region we consider, Africa, Europe, Australia, or America, we find that the major migrations have always been from Asia. Even the most accurate science books will prove you this. Now we may ask, 'Where did the Far Eastern race - Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. - originate from? Interracial procreation will result in genes mutation. (did you read my other post?) Therefore, after a period of time, mutations in the genes produced the different races, according to their adaption to their environment. But it is generally accepted in Theologians that the Arabs are from the line of Ham (Noah's son) and Canaan, then the Asians would fall under the line of Shem (Noah's 2nd son). Those who migrated to Europe and Northern Asia would be from the line of Japeth (Noah's 3rd son).
...correction: 'Japheth' (spelling); and the Arabs do not collectively fall under Ham's line, they were also linked to Shem. The blacks, by the way are generally accepted by Theologians to fall under Ham's line as well.
Next, Guest_30bc4 said: 'building a tower to God story where he changed all of their languages'
The story of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 10 and 11)is actually one of my favorite stories because here we can see God's sovereignty and power. This is very similar to what the future 'Anti-Christ' will establish in Jerusalem. Anyway, allow me to tell this awesome story. There was a prehistoric empire established in Mesopotamia (today's Iraq). It was centered in Babel, usually identified with Babylon, but more likely Kish, the city next to Babylon and the oldest settlement ever found in central Mesopotamia. The ruler was Nimrod, an ambitious great-grandson of Noah, described in Hebrew as 'the mighty hunter against God'. You can grab an ancient history book that mentions Nimrod. He led the rebellion against God, by setting up a one-world government that opposed God's plan for mankind. God told Noah's descendants to settle the entire world, but Nimrod had a different idea - keep everybody in one spot and build an unbeatable nation. God viewed the Babel society as a threat to His purpose in mankind, perhaps even as a direct threat to the continued existence of man.
As Genesis 11 tells us, God stopped all this by dividing mankind into about 70 languages (this figure comes from Hebrew tradition, which says there were 70 languages, because 70 individuals are listed in Genesis 10), forcing them to scatter out into the vast world they were reluctant to settle originally. The unity of mankind was permanently lost, and with it, the first post-diluvian civilization ended. GREAT STORY HUH.
Guest_30bc4 said: 'What about the generations and generations of cultures and people who knew nothing of this religion (FYI: relationship with Jesus is NOT a religion), and therefore enevitably go to hell and rot in agony for eternity?'
The generations before Jesus Christ are not, of course, under the power of His redemption on the cross. God (of the Bible) is perfectly just and fair. He would NOT just send ALL souls who lived before Christ to eternal damnation, simply because they were not redeemed by His blood.
But note this (that's why I was asking you if it's OK for me to quote verses): Romans 1:19-21
"19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are WITHOUT EXCUSE. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." (CONTINUED...)
Moreover, I believe that the little children who have 'no knowledge of good and evil', will surely go to heaven when they die with this state of innocence.
There are a few instances in the Bible that shows the 'unevangelized' (did not hear the Gospel) coming to faith in God. Rahab believed in God after hearing reports of the Israelites' exodus from Egypt, which was probably the most she had heard about God
. Cornelius, a first-century Gentile who had been exposed to Judaism, believed in God and had a relationship with him despite not having heard of Jesus. In fact, God told Cornelius to seek out Peter so that he would hear the Gospel
Guest_30bc4 said: 'And I find it hard to believe that a good man who is nothing but a good, people-loving, essentially kind hearted man can be born in a remote country, live his entire life ignorant of the bible as he would have never heard of it...(ends up in hell)'
I believe I already mentioned a fraction of the answer to these in my above posts. But a very, very, very good man, can still easily end up in hell because the Bible clearly says that ALL has fallen short of His Kingdom. One doesn't need to do the 'act' of sin to acquire sin. Just by 'thinking about' stealing, lust, killing, lying, etc. will be grave enough to condemn a soul to hell. God is perfect, and NO SIN CAN ENTER HIS KINGDOM. Genuine repentance, turning away from sin, and having a personal relationship with God, is I believe, the way to be saved for those who lived before Christ.
CONTINUED...
Matt - "He loves the Christians, we know that He DOESN'T want them to go to hell, but He has given everyone a choice, and when ur faced with the truth and you reject it, you've made ur choice." It is similar to how God judges children. He judges them on what they know and their ability to make a decision. How can someone make a decision based on something they do not know about? I understand what you're saying!! I question these things myself sometimes, but Jesus has given the Christians the responsibility to go out into all the nations and spread the word, so that people CAN make a decision because they now know what it is they must base their decision on. I know that Jesus is THE most loving, merciful person alive, and i do not think He is harsh enough to throw those who do not deserve hell, into hell. Judgement day is exactly what it is - Judgement day. God will judge us on what we know and what we've done about it. If you know nothing about Jesus, but have been a great person all your life, im sure Jesus would welcome you in and say "ITs nice for you to finally meet me, Im Jesus. The One who died so that you may have eternal life, with Me." I do not think Jesus would reject someone who never knew He ever existed.
I apologize for the boredom I have caused you, Matt. Let me present a summary:
- God loves everyone.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
- He desires that everyone to be saved.
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
- God takes a person's knowledge into account when judging them.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
- For those of us who heard the Gospel...
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
The Bible is frightening for those who reject it, but it is a sanctuary of hope and love for those who embrace it.
Have a pleasant day, my fellow human beings.
-Dennis
BUT!!! I do agree with what Stranger said... Sin will not enter His Kingdom, and who is without sin? unless you believe in Jesus and repent. I do not like to question things, i am not clever enough and have only been a Christian for 1 and a half years, so please do not take what i say seriously. It is what i think, so please remember that. I will know when i get to Heaven.
Beeji, you're very well articulated, no worries.
Visit your 'userpage', I think you'll like what I put there. Cya! =)
Yes, tomorrow evening.
good one, Matt. stranger7800 will be here shortly to answer your questions. He is much smarter than I am.
Greetings to Matt and everyone else!
Before we go on, I just wanted to point out that you are not to base the truth of Jesus Christ on the 'opinions' of men. Do I consider the Bible 'opinions' of men? I'd utter an emphatic NO! It is indubitably God-inspired. Thus, I will be quoting a lot of Bible verses to lead us to the answers. Your questions sure cause countless Christians to stumble, especially those who are not fully committed to the Gospel of Christ. If my words wobble here, I deeply hope that I don't cause a believer to weaken in the faith. On the other hand, I am confident that the Holy Spirit will guide us through these questions of yours. I ask that you bear with me tonight for I have tons of other obligations to do; our discussion would most likely be concluded over the weekend.
.....
Matt's question is clear, and can be summarized into this: Why would a perfectly fair and perfectly just God give a far greater chance of salvation to other people; but a far greater chance of eternal damnation?
First, we must understand that God will judge all people righteously. I will post this again:
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
This applies to all, no matter what race you are or what religion you practice.
"And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the people with equity."
One question is: those who were born and raised in a certain society/culture much different from Christian societies. God has made a way, time and time again, to reach out to His creation from the very beginning, but it is men who repeatedly rejects Him. I can name you numerous events when God 'tried' to offer salvation to mankind but the majority of men just never obeyed. He loves us so much that He, first used hundreds of prophets to deliver His instructions, but what did men do? They harmed and murdered those prophets. But God did not stop there, He Himself came down to earth to:
- To reveal Himself (Matt. 11:27)
- To serve (Matt. 20:28)
- To deliver His words (John 17:8)
- To testify to the truth (John 18:37)
- To know who is true (1 John 5:20)
- To be a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28)
- To preach the good news of the kingdom of God (Luke 4:43)
- To do the will of the Father (John 6:38)
- To fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17)
- To give life (John 10:10,28)
- To call sinners (Mark 2:17)
- To atone for sin (Heb. 2:17)
- To take away sin (1 John 3:5)
But what did we do?
.....
We trampled, crushed, hit His face, spitted on Him, slashed His back over and over, inflict countless wounds all over His body, and finally put Him to death!
Now tell me, what can be more unfair than that?! If He Himself was rejected, what makes you think that a worldwide proclamation of the Gospel will mean 'far greater' chances of salvation for all? We, human beings, are the ones UNFAIR!
But did God stop there?
.....
Right now, at this very moment, millions of Christian Missionaries are all over the world. God has now convicted millions of Christians to do whatever they can to spread the Gospel and salvation of Jesus Christ; through television, radio, internet, letters, brochures, leaflets, gatherings of all magnitudes, in public transportation, wherever, whatever way possible, you name it, there are Christians proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus. Yes, even to the remotest islands, and the most dangerous countries. They must know something really really important for us to be lunatic enough to do these. I see it this way:
Let's say there's a worldwide disease/sickness (far worse than AIDS) that has absolutely no cure and EVERY SINGLE PERSON is infected. There is no cure other than the millions of 'salvation pills' that I have right here in my room. Would I keep these pills to myself, knowing that this is the ONLY cure for the said disease? Of course not! I would definitely start giving these for free, first to my family, then to my friends, colleagues, and everyone else I meet along the way, and reach as many people as possible. I'd also seek other's help to distribute them.
But my friends, 'sin' is a million-fold more lethal than the disease I mentioned above. Sin means eternal damnation. That's the reason why 'real' Christians do what we do. What other religion has reached the world the way the believers of Jesus Christ did, in the manner that we do? That is, peacefully and lovingly. What does that tell you? Could it be true that we are offering the 'salvation pills'? It's your decision.
Now, Matt, what makes you think that there are more Europeans or Americans (or what have you) in heaven? What makes you think that there are far greater more Asians in hell? Answer these first: Which countries have the largest divorce and abortion rates? Which countries are in the top ten when it comes to crimes? Which countries have the greater percentage of 'atheists' and 'agnostics'? I know you know the answers for these. If not, I can give you the statistics. Now, what does that tell you regarding 'being born' in a so-called 'Christian' country?
.....
(Matthew 7 13-14) "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
.....
God judges every single one of us 'individually'. According to our "knowledge of what's good and what's evil" and according to what's in our hearts.
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
Matt, you tend to jump into conclusion that the majority of people in Japan or China or whatever non-Christian country has already rejected God. We are NOT to judge. It is only God who truly knows. Actually, the ones who were raised in non-Christian cultures and got converted to Christianity are the 'strongest' in the faith. I cannot give you the factual numbers to prove this assertion, but through my experience, the believers I've met who were from somewhere else (Nigeria, Korea, Samoa, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, just to name a few) are the ones with the stronger faith in Christ. I've been a Christian for only 8 years now, but I sure have met believers from all walks of life. I think I mentioned to you before that I was once an atheist. Yes! Don't be surprised. And my story is as amazing as it can get. (but we don't need to go there)
.....
An example of how the 'word of God' is distributed all over the world:
Gideons International is a Christian business and professional men's association that distributes God's Holy Word in hotels/motels, hospitals, schools, jails, and all places. This is a volunteer association whose overhead expenses are run solely on the members' dues, and the expenses of the Bibles are from donations from people all over the world. Its National Headquarters in Nashville is over 100 years old. There are around 170,000 Gideons and auxiliaries in the world. The man is called a Gideon, and his wife is called an auxilliary. Gideons International distributes around 60 million Gideon Bibles worldwide every year.
Matt, I hope you have a calculator to multiply these. This is just ONE organization. I won't even enumerate the thousand of others who do the same outreach worldwide. My point here is, God will give everyone a chance. If He missed one or two in some places, then Romans 2 will apply to them.
To be continued, my friend...I wish you peace, love and hope as I leave temporarily.
Goodnight!
Oh, before I depart, if anyone of you would like to have a Bible, FREE OF CHARGE, email me your home address (or PO Box) and I will try my best to send you one. I'm very aware that this website reaches millions of people around the world, so bear with me if the delivery is delayed. May God bless us all! Bye now!
stranger7800 at yahoodotcom
Guest_4352b, I had to come back to 'somehow' give you an answer. (we'll further tackle this over the weekend) If I don't successfully answer some of your questions, please don't conclude that Jesus is false. I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING. If you are really searching for the truth, and not just here to cause me to stumble (which I doubt), there are plenty of other resources out there (mainly the Bible, for one) to clear your doubts. Surely, you will find the truth, if your purpose is to accept it.
Jesus did not go to all the continents of the world because, although He is God, He was also 100% human when He went to this earth. 2000 years ago, we won't argue that for a man to travel 100 miles of distance, it would take him approximately 2-3 days. Moreover, this kind of travel would have been extremely difficult for a youngster. The distances that had to be covered were incredible for anyone in that time, adult or child, given the methods of transportation. Also, don't forget that Jesus came from an extremely poor family who could not afford the incredibly expensive trips at that time. Take also into consideration that Jesus was a Jew and the rest of the world were Gentiles, and you probably know the very strict cultural tolerance during His time.
.....But.....
Indeed, He reached as many people as He possibly could, either Jews or Gentiles. Jerusalem, Egypt, Capernaum, Syria, all the way to the North in Tyre and Korazin...this much travelling during that time is almost impossible for a young man at that time (He started preaching when He was around 30), but He did it! Also, take into consideration the kind of rejection that He encountered wherever He went; that contributed to the very tough task of travelling. But Him, being God, He knew everything ahead of time, and so He knew that the entire Roman Empire would hear about Him. Do you realize how vast the Roman Empire at that time was? It was huge! Meaning, if the most powerful empire knows about Him, there's a great chance that the rest of the world will also hear about Him. Then when He was crucified in Calvary then Resurrected the 3rd day, the rest of the world was reached by the Apostle Paul, the 11 disciples (minus Judas), then whoever followed His teachings after those events. Now, what he have are the manuscripts of these 'eye witnesses' and the rest from prophets thousands of years ago. We left the extremely tough task of analyzing and compiling and studying and translating the manuscripts to the ancient theologians and scholars of the old.
I think I've already lost track of what we're trying to accomplish here, so I better leave now. We'll talk about these again some other time. Take care!
Guest_4352b, you say you are a Christian, but you obviously don't have the entire knowledge of Jesus Christ, especially His diety and being God. You got a lot of things mixed up, and I don't blame you for that. You're a young believer; and I was once like you, with a very strong skeptic mind, with thousands of questions in my mind and in my heart, but after reading and studying the Bible in its context, everything was clarified to me...AND I AM HERE TO SHARE WHAT GOD HAD REVEALED TO ME THROUGH HIS WORD. I'd probably not be able to give you the answers right away, considering that I'd be out of town, so I ask that you come back and re-check this ballot (or you can give me your email) next week. I will give you the specific Bible verses that will answer your doubts on Jesus' diety, your questions regarding God's all-knowing power, and the supposedly 'fear-provoking' notion of hell. Until then, take care!
P.S.
I've posted numerous comments on many other ballots under the category "Religion". They might help.
Guest_dd6d5, thank God that I'm not the only one who understands the Bible in its entirety. And we are to reveal Jesus Christ's divinity to those who question it, and Guest_4352b is one of them. I will make it a lot more simple since Guest_4352b probably is still a little confused with the Bible verses that were mentioned here (though they were as clear as crystal to those who believe that Jesus and God the Father are one). Please don't get offended, believe me, I totally understand your doubts. In fact, doubts like yours made way for the numrous other religions that we have today.
The Trinity is the teaching that there exists only one God in all the universe, none before and none after Him (Isaiah 44:6,8) and that God consists of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Father, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, yet, there are NOT three Gods, but one. This indeed causes some confusion even among believers. Let me give an illustration. Time, for example has 3 'components': past, present, and future...but these 3 are all 'time'. Matter's 3 basic components are solid, liquid and gas. With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time. The same concept goes with God.
I hope that made it a little simpler for you. I'm still out of 'state' so please come back to this ballot next week; I have a lot more explanation for you. For now, I suggest you read the New Testament. It might direct you to whatever you're searching for. God bless!
-Dennis
Some things can never be explained until we get to heaven(by the way, there is something id like to introduce you to. They are called PERIODS).
calm down, sheesh. (you know, two spaces to the right of the M on your keyboard, hint, hint.) Maybe God was angry at the Jewish people for refusing to accept Jesus as the Messiah, and decided to punish them. I don't know. Or, maybe God was testing their faith in God. there are numerous reasons.
not much. It seems that so many don't believe the Bible, even when it is probably the most accurate piece of literatre in the world.
Guest_4352b, I can now conclude that you are not here to find out the answer for your questions. I would only agree to proceed in our Q & A if you promise that you will weigh the things we respond with first before deeming them erroneous. We have shown you the biblical proofs that Jesus is God, but what did we get as your response? Name callings that we are pathetic. Are you really here to hear what we have to say? Or could it just be so that your egoistic heart may be lifted up on a pedestal? In that case, go ahead, you can hop right in and declare yourself 'victorious' over Christians. Otherwise, we will proceed with much more decency and positive attitude. Good day!
by the way, guest, there is something called periods, you know.
Wow this is a real complex question . I think that the word is real just not the king James version I'll study Christianity just pre -Roman since there are alot of civilizations that were Christians before them . Look at how the Greaco-Romans twisted around Egyptian mythology to Greek mythology . They added their own Gods and stuff . why would I follow Roman Catholics when right before they came across Christianity they believed that having sexual acts with little boys was holy ? Now they want me to believe it's a sin they should make up their mind but , hey I guess it does say a little about the fact that priest are doing alot of touchy feely with little boys these days .I beleive in Christ ( I think ) just don't believe everything in the Catholic bible because honestly I am almost positive Romans put their own spin on it . Wow what a great religion .
^ This Anonymous was me. =)
That was really, really, really sad; whatever happened to Guest_4352b.
Ok, let's talk, shall we? There are different explanations for why God allows suffering, but none of them can convince 'everyone' so I will simply list various reasons proposed to account for suffering and evil in the world. Pay attention Guest_4352b from Yonkers, NY...a lot of your questions are tackled here. But hey, if you're now a new atheist convert, what else can I do?
There are different explanations for why God allows suffering, but none of them can convince 'everyone' so I will simply list various reasons proposed to account for suffering and evil in the world...
1. Free Will
Having this freedom means that we can rebel against God and make choices that are contrary to His desires. Evil and anguish are the result of making 'bad free choices'. Moreover, sin entered into the world, confirmed by my rivals here, and with it the effects of being fallen spread to the earth as well as to humanity. My question to you: if you don't believe in God, why bother 'not sin'? If this is survival of the fittest, why bother 'love' or have 'emotions'?
2. God 'allows' evil to happen to discipline and teach people, though we cannot know all the reasons that God has for allowing evil to occur. God 'allows' Satan and his fallen followers to inflict suffering. But, how can God send Satan to do a job and yet God is not responsible for the sin? Simple.
God's authority extends over Satan. God can use Satan to accomplish His ultimate will by simply giving permission to Satan to do that which Satan already DESIRES to do. We see this in the crucifixion of Christ where evil men brought Jesus to death. Yet, at the same time, it was the predetermined plan of God that this be done. God allows the evil one to work His evil yet that word is ultimately used for the glory of God. All this is done without God sinning and it demonstrates God's absolute sovereignty over all creation.
3. Should God stop ALL evil?
The question of stopping evil means that if God is to stop evil, then He must stop all evil. This means that the murderer must be stopped along with the thief. But it also means that thinking evil, which is in rebellion against God, must also be stopped as well; that is, if all evil is to be stopped. Therefore, for God to stop evil and suffering may very well mean that He must remove the ability for people to freely choose what they want to do. So, if God is going to stop evil, is He required to stop all of it or just some of it? If only some of it, then the question would still stand. If He stops all of it, would we be free?
4. Prevention of further suffering
It is possible that human suffering (cancer, disease, etc.) can be a means that God uses to remove the person from further suffering, worse suffering, or future suffering.
5. Suffering and evil is the result of sin
Man rebelled against God and brought suffering into the world. Sin is more than simple rebellion and breaking of God's law. It is permeating throughout all of God's creation bringing imbalance, famine, earthquakes, disease, etc. This does NOT mean that God created evil. Instead, it is God who is 'allowing' evil and suffering to continue for His divine plan.
6. To serve as a warning
Evil and suffering in the world can serve as a warning against breaking God's law and then people can see the necessity of following God's truth. God's ways are right and good and following them leads to security and safety. The consequences of disobeying God's word are manifested in suffering. Therefore, suffering in the world easily serves as a demonstration of the need to follow God's words thereby vindicating what God has said.
7. For the greater plan
Undoubtedly, God has a plan. Since God knows all things He is not surprised by the presence of evil and sin in the world that brings about suffering. But if God knows all things from all eternity, then He is perfectly capable of using suffering in the world in His greater plan. The best and simplest example of this is the suffering of Christ at the hands of evil men. It is by Christ's suffering and death on across that we are able to be redeemed. It was God's plan from all eternity that Christ die for our sins yet Christ was crucified by evil people. This means that God had incorporated into His divine plan the reality of evil and suffering in order to accomplish His will. Of course, this does NOT mean that God is the author of evil, but it means that God is ABOVE it all and can use it to accomplish a greater good. If this is true on a large-scale, why cannot it also be true on a smaller one in each of our individual lives?
8. To serve as a means to bring His Son, Jesus Christ
The death of the Son is the means by which God has redeemed those who would receive Jesus. This death cannot occur if Jesus were not a man. In order to be a man he had to be born as one. But since Jesus was sinless, death has no power over Him. Therefore, in order to die and in order to redeem us, His death must be at the hands of evil people. But, without sin, suffering, and evil in the world, Jesus could not have been sent to the cross. So, it could be said that suffering in the world is necessary in order to bring about the cross which in turn demonstrates the great and awesome love of God. Jesus said that the greatest act of love is to lay one's life down for another. If God is love and love gives, can it be that God must demonstrate the greatest act of love? If so, it can only be done through suffering in the world.
You know that Guest_4352b, I'm done with you. You've already revealed your true self. Don't get me wrong though, I wish you all the best in your brand new quest as an atheist. Been there, done that...and I tell 'ya, that's the most hopeless and purposeless quest a man can ever live for.
Buh-bye!
Hey Darius, I will respond tomorrow. If you can give me your email...a lot better.
stranger7800 at yahoodotcom
I repeat Guest_4352b, I'm done with you. Don't worry, I won't bother going to Yonkers just to preach to you. You've already made your decision long before you came to this ballot. Have a great life!
ur done with me please your mad cause your god doesnt exist boohoo... go cry you fucking pathetic loser for stranger7800
Oh yeah, there you go. Foul language. Boooo, I'm so scared now. His evil self has just been released.
I repeat, what can be more pathetic that your disguise as a Christian losing faith then eventually fully embracing atheism?
Puh-lease. You're one hilarious dude. Let me know if you have something mature to say.
Darius, my response is a very long one, so I decided not to post it on this one since it's really not appropriate for this ballot.
I posted it on your ballot "Is Jesus the Father". Catch you there!
it is a good thing so many texts predating the bible have been found with the original sayings that christians have appropriated, misinterpreted , suppressed , modified , altered to their benefit and self interest.
If people want to know about what the christians have done to the original work ,about all they have fucked with and supressed ,that which the man-made bible is derived from than dont look to a christian.
We know that already.
Around the world over the centuries, much has been written about religion, its meaning, its relevance and contribution to humanity. In the West particularly, sizable tomes have been composed speculating upon the nature and historical background of the main character of Western religions, Jesus Christ. Many have tried to dig into the precious few clues as to Jesus's identity and come up with a biographical sketch that either bolsters faith or reveals a more human side of this godman to which we can all relate. Obviously, considering the time and energy spent on them, the subjects of Christianity and its legendary founder are very important to the Western mind andculture.
The Controversy
Despite all of this literature continuously being cranked out and the significance of the issue, in the public at large there is a serious lack of formal and broad education regarding religion and mythology, and most individuals are highly uninformed in this area. Concerning the issue of Christianity, for example, the majority of people are taught in most schools and churches that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure and that the only controversy regarding him is that some people accept him as the Son of God and the Messiah, while others do not. However, whereas this is the raging debate most evident in this field today, it is not the most important. Shocking as it may seem to the general populace, the most enduring and profound controversy in this subject is whether or not a person named Jesus Christ ever really existed.
Although this debate may not be evident from publications readily found in popular bookstores1, when one examines this issue closely, one will find a tremendous volume of literature that demonstrates, logically and intelligently, time and again that Jesus Christ is a mythological character along the same lines as the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian or other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths rather than historical figures2.
Delving deeply into this large body of work, one uncovers evidence that the Jesus character is based upon much older myths and heroes from around the globe. One discovers that this story is not, therefore, a historical representation of a Jewish rebel carpenter who had physical incarnation in the Levant 2,000 years ago. In other words, it has been demonstrated continually for centuries that this character, Jesus Christ, was invented and did not depict a real person who was either the 'son of God ' or was ' evemeristically ' made into a superhuman by enthusiastic followers
History and Positions of the Debate
This controversy has existed from the very beginning, and the writings of the "Church Fathers" themselves reveal that they were constantly forced by the pagan intelligentsia to defend what the non-Christians and other Christians ("heretics")4 alike saw as a preposterous and fabricated yarn with absolutely no evidence of it ever having taken place in history. As Rev. Robert Taylor says, "And from the apostolic age downwards, in a never interrupted succession, but never so strongly and emphatically as in the most primitive times, was the existence of Christ as a man most strenuously denied."5 Emperor Julian, who, coming after the reign of the fanatical and murderous "good Christian" Constantine, returned rights to pagan worshippers, stated, "If anyone should wish to know the truth with respect to you Christians, he will find your impiety to be made up partly of the Jewish audacity, and partly of the indifference and confusion of the Gentiles, and that you have put together not the best, but the worst characteristics of them both.
According to these learned dissenters, the New Testament could rightly be called, "Gospel Fictions."7
A century ago, mythicist Albert Churchward said, "The canonical gospels can be shown to be a collection of sayings from the Egyptian Mythos and Eschatology."8 In Forgery in Christianity, Joseph Wheless states, "The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended dates."9 Those who concocted some of the hundreds of "alternative" gospels and epistles that were being kicked about during the first several centuries C.E. have even admitted that they had forged the documents.10 Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud."11 Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia.12 Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius13, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said and did during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.14
The Proof
The assertion that Jesus Christ is a myth can be proved not only through the works of dissenters and "pagans" who knew the truth - and who were viciously refuted or murdered for their battle against the Christian priests and "Church Fathers" fooling the masses with their fictions - but also through the very statements of the Christians themselves, who continuously disclose that they knew Jesus Christ was a myth founded upon more ancient deities located throughout the known ancient world. In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"15 (Emphasis added.) As Wheless says, "The proofs of my indictment are marvellously easy."
The Gnostics
From their own admissions, the early Christians were incessantly under criticism by scholars of great repute who were impugned as "heathens" by their Christian adversaries. This group included many Gnostics, who strenuously objected to the carnalization of their deity, as the Christians can be shown to have taken many of the characteristics of their god and godman from the Gnostics, meaning "Ones who know," a loose designation applied to members of a variety of esoteric schools and brotherhoods. The refutations of the Christians against the Gnostics reveal that the Christian godman was an insult to the Gnostics, who held that their god could never take human form.16
Biblical Sources
It is very telling that the earliest Christian documents, the Epistles attributed to "Paul," never discuss a historical background of Jesus but deal exclusively with a spiritual being who was known to all gnostic sects for hundreds to thousands of years. The few "historical" references to an actual life of Jesus cited in the Epistles are demonstrably interpolations and forgeries, as are, according to Wheless, the Epistles themselves, as they were not written by "Paul."17 Aside from the brief reference to Pontius Pilate at 1 Timothy 6:13, an epistle dated ben Yehoshua to 144 CE and thus not written by Paul, the Pauline literature (as pointed out by Edouard Dujardin) "does not refer to Pilate18, or the Romans, or Caiaphas, or the Sanhedrin, or Herod19, or Judas, or the holy women, or any person in the gospel account of the Passion, and that it also never makes any allusion to them; lastly, that it mentions absolutely none of the events of the Passion, either directly or by way of allusion."20 Dujardin additionally relates that other early "Christian" writings such as Revelation do not mention any historical details or drama.21 Mangasarian notes that Paul also never quotes from Jesus's purported sermons and speeches, parables and prayers, nor does he mention Jesus's supernatural birth or any of his alleged wonders and miracles, all which one would presume would be very important to his followers, had such exploits and sayings been known prior to "Paul."22
Turning to the gospels themselves, which were composed between 170-180 C.E.22a, their pretended authors, the apostles, give sparse histories and genealogies of Jesus that contradict each other and themselves in numerous places. The birthdate of Jesus is depicted as having taken place at different times. His birth and childhood are not mentioned in "Mark," and although he is claimed in "Matthew" and "Luke" to have been "born of a virgin," his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy."23 He is said in the first three (Synoptic) gospels to have taught for one year before he died, while in "John" the number is three years. "Matthew" relates that Jesus delivered "The Sermon on the Mount"24 before "the multitudes," while "Luke" says it was a private talk given only to the disciples. The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each other, and no one states how old he was when he died.25 Wheless says, "The so-called 'canonical' books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mess of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more 'variant readings,' as is well known and admitted."26 In addition, of the dozens of gospels, ones that were once considered canonical or genuine were later rejected as "apocryphal" or spurious, and vice versa. So much for the "infallible Word of God" and "infallible" Church! The confusion exists because the Christian plagiarists over the centuries were attempting to amalgamate and fuse practically every myth, fairytale, legend, doctrine or bit of wisdom they could pilfer from the innumerable different mystery religions and philosophies that existed at the time. In doing so, they forged, interpolated, mutilated, changed, and rewrote these texts for centuries.27
Non-Biblical Sources
Basically, there are no non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any known historian of the time during and after Jesus's purported advent. Walker says, "No literate person of his own time mentioned him in any known writing." Eminent Hellenistic Jewish historian and philosopher Philo (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), alive at the purported time of Jesus, makes no mention of him. Nor do any of the some 40 other historians who wrote during the first one to two centuries of the Common Era. "Enough of the writings of authors . . . remain to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ."28 Their silence is deafening testimony against the historicizers.
In the entire works of the Jewish historian Josephus, which constitute many volumes, there are only two paragraphs that purport to refer to Jesus. Although much has been made of these "references," they have been dismissed by all scholars and even by Christian apologists as forgeries, as have been those referring to John the Baptist and James, "brother" of Jesus. Bishop Warburton labeled the Josephus interpolation regarding Jesus as "a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too."29 Wheless notes that, "The first mention ever made of this passage, and its text, are in the Church History of that 'very dishonest writer,' Bishop Eusebius, in the fourth century. . . CE admits . . . the above cited passage was not known to Origen and the earlier patristic writers." Wheless, a lawyer, and Taylor, a minister, agree that it was Eusebius himself who forged the passage.
Regarding the letter to Trajan supposedly written by Pliny the Younger, which is one of the pitifully few "references" to Jesus or Christianity held up by Christians as evidence of the existence of Jesus, there is but one word that is applicable - "Christian" - and that has been demonstrated to be spurious, as is also suspected of the entire letter. Concerning the passage in the works of the historian Tacitus, who did not live during the purported time of Jesus but was born two decades after his purported death, this is also considered by competent scholars as an interpolation andforgery.30 Christian defenders also like to hold up the passage in Suetonius that refers to someone named "Chrestus" or "Chresto" as reference to their Savior; however, while some have speculated that there was a Roman man of that name at that time, the name "Chrestus" or "Chrestos," meaning "useful," was frequently held by freed slaves. Others opine that this passage is also an interpolation.
As these references and their constant regurgitation by Christian apologists, Dr. Alvin Boyd Kuhn says:
"The average Christian minister who has not read outside the pale of accredited Church authorities will impart to any parishioner making the inquiry the information that no event in history iis better attested by witness than the occurences in the Gospel narrative of Christ's life. He will go over the usual citation of the historians who mention Jesus and the letters claiming to have been written about him. When the credulous questioner, putting trust in the intelligence and good faith of his pastor, gets this answer, he goes away assured on the point of the veracity of the Gospel story. The pastor does not qualify his data with the information that the practice of forgery, fictionizing and fable was rampant in the early Church. In the simple interest of truth, then, it is important to examine the body of alleged testimony from secular history and see what credibility and authority it possess.
"First, as to the historians whose works record the existence of Jesus, the list comprises but four. They are Pliny, Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus. There are short paragraphs in the works of each of these, two in Josephus. The total quantity of this material is given by Harry Elmer Barnes in The Twilight of Christianity as some twenty-four lines. It may total a little more, perhaps twice that amount. This meager testimony constitutes the body or mass of the evidence of 'one of the best attested events in history.' Even if it could be accepted as indisputably authentic and reliable, it would be faltering support for an event that has dominated the thought of half the world for eighteen centuries.
"But what is the standing of this witness? Not even Catholic scholars of importance have dissented from a general agreement of academic investigators that these passages, one and all, must by put down as forgeries and interpolations by partisan Christian scribes who wished zealously to array the authority of these historians behind the historicity of the Gospel life of Jesus. A sum total of forty or fifty lines from secular history supporting the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, and they completely discredited!"30a
Of these "references," Dujardin says, "But even if they are authentic, and were derived from earlier sources, they would not carry us back earlier than the period in which the gospel legend took form, and so could attest only the legend of Jesus, and not his historicity." In any case, these scarce and brief "references" to a man who supposedly shook up the world can hardly be held up as proof of his existence, and it is absurd that the purported historicity of the entire Christian religion is founded upon them.31 As it is said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"; yet, no proof of any kind for the historicity of Jesus has ever existed or is forthcoming.
The Characters
It is evident that there was no single historical person upon whom the Christian religion was founded, and that "Jesus Christ" is a compilation of legends, heroes, gods and godmen. There is not adequate room here to go into detail about each god or godman that contributed to the formation of the Jewish Jesus character; suffice it to say that there is plenty of documentation to show that this issue is not a question of "faith" or "belief." The truth is that during the era this character supposedly lived there was an extensive library at Alexandria and an incredibly nimble brotherhood network that stretched from Europe to China, and this information network had access to numerous manuscripts that told the same narrative portrayed in the New Testament with different place names and ethnicity for the characters. In actuality, the legend of Jesus nearly identically parallels the story of Krishna, for example, even in detail, as was presented by noted mythologist and scholar Gerald Massey over 100 years ago, as well as by Rev. Robert Taylor 160 years ago, among others.32 The Krishna tale as told in the Hindu Vedas has been dated to at least as far back as 1400 B.C.E.33 The same can be said of the well-woven Horus mythos, which also is practically identical, in detail, to the Jesus story, but which predates the Christian version by thousands of years.
The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed.33a
Adad of Assyria
* Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece
* Alcides of Thebes
* Attis of Phrygia
* Baal of Phoenicia
* Bali of Afghanistan
* Beddru of Japan
* Buddha of India
* Crite of Chaldea
* Deva Tat of Siam
* Hesus of the Druids
* Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character34
Indra of Tibet/India
* Jao of Nepal
* Krishna of India
* Mikado of the Sintoos
* Mithra of Persia
* Odin of the Scandinavians
* Prometheus of Caucasus/ Greece
* Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
* Salivahana of Bermuda
* Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas35)
* Thor of the Gauls
* Universal Monarch of the Sibyls36
* Wittoba of the Bilingonese
* Xamolxis of Thrace
* Zarathustra/ Zoroaster of Persia
* Zoar of the Bonzes
The Major Players
Buddha
Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.37
The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:38
* Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."38aa
* He was of royal descent.
* He crushed a serpent's head.
* He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.38a
He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
* He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
* He was transfigured on a mount.
Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin- atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.38c
* He ascended to Nirvana or 'heaven.'
* Buddha was considered the 'Good Shepherd' 39, the 'Carpenter' 40, the "Infinite and Everlasting."40a
Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin- atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.38c
* He ascended to Nirvana or 'heaven.'
* Buddha was considered the 'Good Shepherd'39, the 'Carpenter'40, the 'Infinite and Everlasting.'40a
* He was called the 'Savior of the World' and the 'Light of the World.'
Horus of Egypt
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one").41 The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:
* Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.43
* He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.44
* Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
* He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar- us, from the dead.
* He walked on water.
* Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
* He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
* He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
* He was 'the Fisher,'and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").45
Horus's personal epithet was 'Iusa,' the 'ever-becoming son' of 'Ptah,' the 'Father.'46
* Horus was called 'the KRST,' or 'Anointed One,' long before the Christians duplicated the story.47
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original 'Madonna and Child'48 - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy ofMithra49, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced50. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.51
Mithra, Sungod of Persia
The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:
* Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
* He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
* He had 12 companions or disciples.
* He performed miracles.
* He was buried in a tomb.
* After three days he rose again.
* His resurrection was celebrated every year.
* Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
* He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
* He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
* His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
* Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
* His religion had
a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."52
Krishna of India
The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna.53
* Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") 53a
* His father was a carpenter.54
* His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.54a
* He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.55
* He was of royal descent.
* He was baptized in the River Ganges.55a
* He worked miracles and wonders.
* He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
* "He lived poor and he loved the poor."56
* He was transfigured in front of his disciples.57
* In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.58
* He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
* Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."59
* He is the second person of the Trinity,60 and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."60a
* He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
His disciples bestowed upon him the title 'Jezeus,'meaning 'pure essence.'61
* Krishna is to return to do battle with the 'Prince of Evil,' who will desolate the earth.62
Prometheus of Greece
The Greek god Prometheus has been claimed to have come from Egypt, but his drama took place in the Caucasus mountains. Prometheus shares a number of striking similarities with the Christ character.
Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.
* He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
* He was called the Logos or Word.62a
Five centuries before the Christian era, esteemed Greek poet Aeschylus wrote Prometheus Bound, which, according to Taylor, was presented in the theater in Athens. Taylor claims that in the play Prometheus is crucified "on a fatal tree" and the sky goes dark:
"The darkness which closed the scene on the suffering Prometheus, was easily exhibited on the stage, by putting out the lamps; but when the tragedy was to become history, and the fiction to be turned into fact, the lamp of day could not be so easily disposed of. Nor can it be denied that the miraculous darkness which the Evangelists so solemnly declare to have attended the crucifixion of Christ, labours under precisely the same fatality of an absolute and total want of evidence."
Tradition holds that Prometheus was crucified on a rock, yet some sources have opined that legend also held he was crucified on a tree and that Christians muddled the story and/or mutilated the text, as they did with the works of so many ancient authors. In any case, the sun hiding in darkness parallels the Christian fable of the darkness descending when Jesus was crucified. This remarkable occurrence is not recorded in history but is only explainable within the Mythos and as part of a recurring play.
The Creation of a Myth
The Christians went on a censorship rampage that led to the virtual illiteracy of the ancient world and ensured that their secret would be hidden from the masses64, but the scholars of other schools/sects never gave up their arguments against the historicizing of a very ancient mythological creature. We have lost the arguments of these learned dissenters because the Christians destroyed any traces of their works. Nonetheless, the Christians preserved the contentions of their detractors through the Christians' own refutations.
For example, early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you."65 Interestingly, a previously strident believer and defender of the faith, Tertullian later renounced Christianity66.
The "Son" of God is the "Sun" of God 67
The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the "Mythos," as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.68
For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th ("Christmas"69). This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th.70 The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.71
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.72
Contrary to popular belief, the ancients were not an ignorant and superstitious lot who actually believed their deities to be literal characters. Indeed, this slanderous propaganda has been part of the conspiracy to make the ancients appear as if they were truly the dark and dumb rabble that was in need of the "light of Jesus."73 The reality is that the ancients were no less advanced in their morals and spiritual practices, and in many cases were far more advanced, than the Christians in their own supposed morality and ideology, which, in its very attempt at historicity, is in actuality a degradation of the ancient Mythos. Indeed, unlike the "superior" Christians, the true intelligentsia amongst the ancients were well aware that their gods were astronomical and atmospheric in nature. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle74 surely knew that Zeus, the sky god father figure who migrated to Greece from India and/or Egypt, was never a real person, despite the fact that the Greeks have designated on Crete both a birth cave and a death cave of Zeus. In addition, all over the world are to be found sites where this god or that allegedly was born, walked, suffered, died, etc., a common and unremarkable occurrence that is not monopolized by, and did not originate with, Christianity.74a
Etymology Tells the Story
Zeus, aka "Zeus Pateras," who we now automatically believe to be a myth and not a historical figure, takes his name from the Indian version, "Dyaus Pitar." Dyaus Pitar in turn is related to the Egyptian "Ptah," and from both Pitar and Ptah comes the word "pater," or "father." "Zeus" equals "Dyaus," which became "Deos," "Deus" and "Dios" - "God." "Zeus Pateras," like Dyaus Pitar, means, "God the Father," a very ancient concept that in no way originated with "Jesus" and Christianity. There is no question of Zeus being a historical character. Dyaus Pitar becomes "Jupiter" in Roman mythology, and likewise is not representative of an actual, historical character. In Egyptian mythology, Ptah, the Father, is the unseen god-force, and the sun was viewed as Ptah's visible proxy who brings everlasting life to the earth; hence, the "son of God" is really the "sun of God." Indeed, according to Hotema, the very name "Christ" comes from the Hindi word "Kris" (as in Krishna), which is a name for the sun.75
Furthermore, since Horus was called "Iusa /Iao /Iesu"76 the "KRST," and Krishna/ Christna was called "Jezeus," centuries before any Jewish character similarly named, it would be safe to assume that Jesus Christ is just a repeat of Horus and Krishna, among the rest. According to Rev. Taylor, the title "Christ" in its Hebraic form meaning "Anointed" ("Masiah"77) was held by all kings of Israel, as well as being "so commonly assumed by all sorts of impostors, conjurers, and pretenders to supernatural communications, that the very claim to it is in the gospel itself considered as an indication of imposture
Hotema states that the name "Jesus Christ" was not formally adopted in its present form until after the first Council of Nicea, i.e., in 325 C.E.79
In actuality, even the place names and the appellations of many other characters in the New Testament can be revealed to be Hebraicized renderings of the Egyptian texts.
As an example, in the fable of "Lazarus," the mummy raised from the dead by Jesus, the Christian copyists did not change his name much, "El-Azar-us" being the Egyptian mummy raised from the dead by Horus possibly 1,000 years or more before the Jewish version.80 This story is allegory for the sun reviving its old, dying self, or father, as in "El-Osiris."81 It is not a true story.
Horus's principal enemy - originally Horus's other face or "dark" aspect - was "Set" or "Sata," whence comes "Satan."82 Horus struggles with Set in the exact manner that Jesus battles with Satan, with 40 days in the wilderness, among othersimilarities.83 This is because this myth represents the triumph of light over dark, or the sun's return to relieve the terror of the night.
"Jerusalem" simply means "City of Peace," and the actual city in Israel was named after the holy city of peace in the Egyptian sacred texts that already existed at the time the city was founded. Likewise, "Bethany," site of the famous multiplying of the loaves, means "House of God," and is allegory for the "multiplication of the many out of the One."84 Any town of that designation was named for the allegorical place in the texts that existed before the town's foundation. The Egyptian predecessor and counterpart is "Bethanu."85
The Book of Revelation is Egyptian and Zoroastrian
One can find certain allegorical place names such as "Jerusalem" and "Israel" in the Book of Revelation. Massey has stated that Revelation, rather than having been written by any apostle called John during the 1st Century C.E., is a very ancient text that dates to the beginning of this era of history, i.e. possibly as early as 4,000 years ago.86 Massey asserts that Revelation relates the Mithraic legend of Zarathustra/Zoroaster.87 Hotema says of this mysterious book, which has baffled mankind for centuries: "It is expressed in terms of creative phenomena; its hero is not Jesus but the Sun of the Universe, its heroine is the Moon; and all its other characters are Planets, Stars and Constellations; while its stage-setting comprises the Sky, the Earth, the Rivers and the Sea." The common form of this text has been attributed by Churchward to Horus's scribe, Aan, whose name has been passed down to us as "John."88
"Jerusalem" simply means "City of Peace," and the actual city in Israel was named after the holy city of peace in the Egyptian sacred texts that already existed at the time the city was founded. Likewise, "Bethany," site of the famous multiplying of the loaves, means "House of God," and is allegory for the "multiplication of the many out of the One."84 Any town of that designation was named for the allegorical place in the texts that existed before the town's foundation. The Egyptian predecessor and counterpart is "Bethanu."85
The Book of Revelation is Egyptian and Zoroastrian
One can find certain allegorical place names such as "Jerusalem" and "Israel" in the Book of Revelation. Massey has stated that Revelation, rather than having been written by any apostle called John during the 1st Century C.E., is a very ancient text that dates to the beginning of this era of history, i.e. possibly as early as 4,000 years ago.86 Massey asserts that Revelation relates the Mithraic legend of Zarathustra/Zoroaster.87 Hotema says of this mysterious book, which has baffled mankind for centuries: "It is expressed in terms of creative phenomena; its hero is not Jesus but the Sun of the Universe, its heroine is the Moon; and all its other characters are Planets, Stars and Constellations; while its stage-setting comprises the Sky, the Earth, the Rivers and the Sea." The common form of this text has been attributed by Churchward to Horus's scribe, Aan, whose name has been passed down to us as "John."88
The word Israel itself, far from being a Jewish appellation, probably comes from the combination of three different reigning deities: Isis, the Earth Mother Goddess revered throughout the ancient world; Ra, the Egyptian sungod; and El, the Semitic deity passed down in form as Saturn.90 El was one of the earliest names for the god of the ancient Hebrews (whence Emmanu-El, Micha-El, Gabri-El, Samu-El, etc.), and his worship is reflected in the fact that the Jews still consider Saturday as "God's Day."91
Indeed, that the Christians worship on Sunday betrays the genuine origins of their god and godman. Their "savior" is actually the sun, which is the "Light of the world that every eye can see." The sun has been viewed consistently throughout history as the savior of mankind for reasons that are obvious. Without the sun, the planet would scarcely last one day. So important was the sun to the ancients that they composed a "Sun Book," or "Helio Biblia," which became the "Holy Bible."91a
The "Patriarchs" and "Saints" are the Gods of Other Cultures
When one studies mythmaking, one can readily discern and delineate a pattern that is repeated throughout history. Whenever an invading culture takes over its predecessors, it either vilifies the preceding deities or makes them into lesser gods, "patriarchs" or, in the case of Christianity, "saints." This process is exemplified in the adoption of the Hindu god Brahma as the Hebrew patriarch Abraham.92 Another school of thought proposes that the patriarch Joshua was based on Horus as "Iusa," since the cult of Horus had migrated by this period to the Levant. In this theory, the cult of Joshua, which was situated in exactly the area where the Christ drama allegedly took place, then mutated into the Christian story, with Joshua becoming Jesus.93 As Robertson says, "The Book of Joshua leads us to think that he had several attributes of the Sun-god, and that, like Samson and Moses, he was an ancient deity reduced to human status."
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