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COMMENTS:
As a paleo-con, small government type, I'm going to say "no." Neither do I consider any of the modern neo-cons to be true conservatives in the older Russell Kirk type sense. They *are* social conservatives, but seem very much over enamored with the growth of governmental powers & bureaucracy rather than its restriction, deficit spending, excessive foreign entanglements over prudent isolationism and intervention only in the national interest (versus "the Bush Doctrine"), and show a depressing realpolitik bit of political pandering when it comes to matters of immigration & border control. Furthermore, actual, traditional conservatives were strict constitutionalists and were wary of tinkering with such bedrock matters as habeas corpus or due process for the accused upon arrest. In general, I think the neo-cons give more traditional cons headaches and the wish to disassociate themselves from them as much as possible.
Not being sarcastic here, that eloquently puts into words what I've been feeling about the neo-conservative movement for some time.
The difference between paleoconservatism and neoconservatism is as much as the difference between either and liberalism. They might as well split the Republicans into two parties. Or what's more likely to happen is that the paleocons are going to bolt like Buchanan did and either start their own party or join the Libertarians or the Constitution Party. Of course this would help the Democrats, who are very united as a party (at least now, because of Bush), so that might be keeping them from leaving. If Kerry gets re-elected, that might keep the GOP together (again, common adversary), but if Bush gets re-elected, the moderates (the ones the rightists call RINOs) will probably bolt and become Democrats or independents. The paleocons might actually leave if the mess in Iraq gets worse or if we end up invading Syria or something. Then we could very well end up with a three-party system, but the Democrats would dominate, meaning the GOP is in decline either way.
I wonder what Reagan would think.
I personally am thinking of joining the constitution party.
"I personally am thinking of joining the constitution party." I am about a centimeter away from signing up with the Libertarians, to be honest. I'm too ideologically opposite from the lib Dems to sing up with them, but I don't recognize the Republican party platform after the neocons finished with it.
"sing" = "sign" (-:
Although, I won't be joining any campfire sing-a-longs with them anytime soon, either.
The libertarians seem to me to be Anarchists with suits. With them the government can do no right and the private industry can do no wrong.
Libertarians want as little government as possible, but I've yet to hear one suggest we'd be better by having it completely abolished. It's just they prefer it as disinterested arbitrator, rather than as socialist nanny to the masses. Having seen the stupidity of enabling continuing cross-generational bad behavior of some of those who most benefit from the nannying, I'm inclined to agree with the Libertarian interpretation. Income redistribution's a morally bankrupt notion that fails society and hampers its most productive members.
Bush is a neo-con. Emphasis on con, he wants to people to think of him as a conservative, when he's doing things that go against most conservatives morals.
No. The majority of voting Americans are conservatives. So therefore Bush has labelled himself a conservative
libertarians are not dems, nor are we republicans or anarchist, we believe in the constitution, and that if people were free to manage their own money, charities would overflow for the less fortunate, we hate high fed taxes, as it only promotes regulation, and bigger gov. Regulations that prohibit a lot of would be small businesses, fines and fees can be outrageous for someone trying to compete with a corpratist who already owns a couple of politicians, these politicians create regulation that makes it harder on competition.
I am a staunch libertarian, but I am votin for Kerry because dems are easier to deal with than neo-cons. The libertarian movement came a long way under Clinton, under Bush we are stifled and
mis-represented. first time I'll vote out of my party since I was old enough to vote. Democracy is about cooperation. Go Kerry!
"No. The majority of voting Americans are conservatives. So therefore Bush has labelled himself a conservative" You live in such a simple world, Tommo, rather like a child's comic book. Then again, you are still living at home with the folks, aren't you, lad?
I was taking the piss out of Bush you mongrel
You are one condescending prick. Get back in your hole
What about the simplicity of your world. You think you can judge someone by where they live. I really dont see how my residential situation would effect what I think.
The simplicity of your comments are much more worrying than mine!
Finally, my point was that what Bush has put accross as his aims too the general public is a very different thing to what he has done. Therefore he has put himself accross as something he is not. He says he is conservative but his motivation obviously lies elsewhere.
I havent read this back so go easy on me
If you think that the fact I happen to be living with my parents at the moment determines my inteegence then I could equally say that the fact you live in the US makes you a completely ignorant red necked prick. But I wouldn't cos thats an unsubstanciated stereotype.
It must beBliss to live in a world where everyone fits in to neat little stereotypes.
"You are one condescending prick. Get back in your hole" Go have your mum or dad dig you one, little pommy man, then crawl under the dirt & take a nice nap. You need one, because you're awfully cranky right now, son.
Ha, ha, yes, yes, no one here was defending Dubya, but in you ride like a drunken crusader into the middle of Constaninople. Good show, lad!
(We need to encourage him, despite his obvious problems with reading comprehension...)
*LOL*
"If you think that the fact I happen to be living with my parents at the moment determines my inteegence then I could equally say that the fact you live in the US makes you a completely ignorant red necked prick. But I wouldn't cos thats an unsubstanciated stereotype." Yet, son, the fact that you do live at home and have never needed to fend your way in the world DOES affect your ability to make meaningful commentary. It's bound to make you more idealistic, more egotistical, less prone to compromise, and lacking any actual sense of how things operate in the world of adult free agents. It's easy to be a snotty little leftist "anarchist" when mum & da are there to pick up the bills every month, and you it's a moot point whether you hold a lucrative position in business right now.
You're just a too-typical teenage loudmouth who loves to hear himself spout silly platitudes and slogans.
Awww, Timmy's still living with his mommy and daddy? Ha! This explains so much.
Say tim, everytime you get your ass figuratively kicked online do you run crying to your mom and ask her to make it all better?
Can't say I'm all that surprised though. Your politics pretty much confirm that you are being taken care of by someone else and have no real world experiance.
"Mummy!! These crumpets are stale, the tea is flat and all these daft Yankee bahstards are blugeoning me with their common sense. I must retire to the loo in tears and pray for the day that St. Karl comes to rescue me. Tah!"
*LMAO*
You fellas, you crack me up. I was in stitches earlier.
Don't forget the inevitable sequel:
"Mumsy, you simply must grant me an advance on my allowance, so I may fly to the States and soundly thwash this dwedful Yank blighter, Fwelix, within a cenni-meter of that w-etched stwirrer's life!"
this poll is stupid ask yourself would you think a fucking fundamentalist such as george bush not be conservative
he is a God Damn Nazi. There is a place for him in hell, despite the Christian rhetoric.
looks to me as if there's a few people on here who need to grow up a bit! I moved back in a while ago cos its cheap, which is my main reason for being here. I've got 14 grands worth of debt to pay off. Thats what an education cost me. Maybe you guys should try it!!
Wow, that's even worse. I thought you were just a dumb highschool kid. Instead your an adult living at home with your parents, très pathétique.
Let me guess, you graduated with some worthless liberal arts degree? This is so stereotypical it's scary. Young kid, no experiance in the real world, goes to college for several years (where he is isolated and indoctrinated by liberal profs), never has to learn anything of value or work a day in his life, but (because he's at college) thinks he's got the whole world figured out and feels more than qualified to lecture us on the 'way things ought to be' because of his degree in womens studies.
Thankfully, "liberal arts degrees" don't exist in Britain. You can't get a degree specializing in fuck all as you can in North America. However, there are a lot of "degrees" which are really tarted-up vocational courses. And there are *loads* of media studies degrees....
"Mumsy, you simply must grant me an advance on my allowance, so I may fly to the States and soundly thwash this dwedful Yank blighter, Fwelix, within a cenni-meter of that w-etched stwirrer's life!"
This is pretty lame and hackneyed by your standards, Felix. You can do a lot better.
In global terms he`s a fascist. In America he`s just slightly right-wing
1) fascism has to do with government control over all aspects of society, this is a tenant of leftwing ideology, not rightwing which emphasizes smaller government.
2) Bush is not a fascist. This is, or should be, obvious. If he were then no protest would be permitted, no media source would be allowed to disagree with him, and political opponents (like kerry) would be rounded up and killed. Answer me this, have any of these things happened? I'll answer for you: No. Now I know that you're an expert on american politics, seeing as how you aren't an american. But in this case you're mistaken.
"This is pretty lame and hackneyed by your standards, Felix. You can do a lot better." Yeah, I dashed that one off hurriedly: it was rather crude, wasn't it? Even if the subject were equally so, that's no excuse... Today, I just don't have much spark to the satirical juices. Ah, well, give me a day or so, and my sardonic barometer with rise.
LRonCupboard - spot on!
Herzog - You do talk some shit. Facism does not mean that the government controls all aspects of society! Facists are those who treat a certain sector of society differently due to differences such as race, religion or beliefs. You are talking complete shite!
You are a facist for continually having a go at people with liberal beliefs. More importantly you are a facist cos of your views about Islamic people in the West. If you had your way you'd be setting up concentration camps to kill all those you dont like.... that is whats called facism. Choosing a sector of society you dont like and making their lives harder.
*as a result
"You are a facist for continually having a go at people with liberal beliefs." -Tommo
The exact opposite guv'nor. We are, as you said 'having a go.' None of this posting and talking really means shite. It's just a forum for debate, or for some people, a chance to disseminate anarchist propoganda. For you to insinuate that anyone with a contrarian opinion should be labeled, ignored and outcast, actually reveals a nascent desire for fascism, and a willingness to withdraw from adversarial discourse in favor of popular decree. In other words, acting like a pussy.
The more important question to be asked here is "Is the man really HUMAN?".
Is being a demon of destruction with a drug habit a conservative or a liberal trait?
supposablethumbs - I knew that'd get picked up on.
What a pile of shite you just wrote!!
People who hold facist views are those who believe a sector of society should be treated differently as a result of characteristics which they believe to be inferior.
I will explain what i meant by the sentance you quoted.
Herzog believes Liberals and Islamic peoples views to be worth less than his own and would happily exclude sectors of society from the US if he had the choice. These desires and beliefs indicate to me that he holds facist views.
I may not like biggoted, conservative red knecks, and i may dissaggree with him, but I do not say that Herzog should be excluded from society because of it. I am not a facist, nor am I a pussy.
You ARE condescending and completely wrong about me!
Quote -
'For you to insinuate that anyone with a contrarian opinion should be labeled, ignored and outcast'
I didn't and dont!! In fact thats exactly what I'm acusing Hurtdog of!
fascism:
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Educate yourself timmy. I know that it's a common tactic of the left to call everyone who disagrees with them a fascist, thus stifling all logical argument and preventing the obvious flaws of leftist ideology from being exposed. But that only works so many times before everyone else gets really tired of it and starts taking you to task. How are you going to respond to this? Hmm? Call me a racist, or perhaps hitler? That seems to be a standard, intellectually devoid, reply from your kind.
Not at all.
Just looked it up and it looks like its a mix between both our definitions. This is what I found
'Fascism is a government structure. The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population'
As with most words there are many varying definitions. You were more right than me, it is government controlled. Well done.
I'm sure you can hold fascist views though.
Do you hold facist views Herzog? (really!?)
Where in the hell did you get that definition? The most notable aspect of a fascist nation is a dictatorial government.
Denial of equality? What the hell. By that logic democrats are fascists by supporting affirmative action. Your definition is bullshit timmy, mine is correct.
And no, I don't hold any fascist views. Conservative remember? Smaller government, less intrusion, the antithesis of left wing fascism.
Felix and Herzog. Grow up chaps! The huge majority of University leavers in this country live at home for the simple facts that they have anywhere between 15-18 thousand pounds worth of debt, and in most areas the cost of a minimal one bedroom apartment can cost as much as £160,000. So Herzog, or is it 'Chuck', you continue working for your daddy Cletus, fucking your sister, and shooting your automatatic weapons on the Ranch, but if you do decide to get an education, come to England. You might like to do a bit more travelling while you are at it. Learn something perhaps.
And by the way, with respect to the definition of the word fascism, you are both right, ever heard of the Nazis, or Franko.
Now that's cleared up, lets have a party, Herzog - You bring the Rednecks, Tommo, you bring your education. It might be of some curiosity to Herzog.
Hey Chips and Tommo, check out Herzog's bio. Says he lives in "College Station." What do you suppose the main industry in that little berg is?
So instead of living with your parents, buggering your school mates and crying yourselves to sleep over Morrissey songs, you may want to do a bit of trahhhveling. Come across the pond and learn something perhaps.
Oh by the way what was this ballot about? Bush being conservative? Lil' of column A and a lil' of column B.
For the record, I'm in college (pre-med), have no debt because I work my ass off, and if I even thought of moving back in after graduation my parents would beat me bloody. Any other questions?
No response, eh?
What do you want me say Herzog? well done,son, well done. Actually I do have one of two question. Why would your parents beat you bloody? Are you studying in a different City where you grew up?, do you have to pay fees at this college?, do you have to pay for accomodation?
Hurtdog - Please please move back home!
'Why would your parents beat you bloody?'
Because they have high expectations for me. Moving back in with your parents after graduation is a sign of failure. You're supposed to leave home and start your own life, no leech off your parents for another few decades.
Yes, this is a different town from where I grew up, about 2 hours away, I didn't get an academic ride so I have to pay for my tuition, housing, food, books, etc.
Timmy: as I explained, A) I can't. B) I don't want to, even if I could. C) There's a little issue of pride, obviously not a problem for you.
If your parents had done a good job raising you then once you were an adult they'd no longer have to support you.
Tommo: I'm utterly unimpressed. I took 3 graduate degrees from U.S. universities in the top 15% for all programs, and, as herzog did, worked my ass (or is it arse?) off and borrowed money when necessary. I also held a number of assistant teaching positions and earned a number of scholarships before done. I went straight to work--not home to mum and da--and I owed a bit more than your lousy $25K or whatever it was. Same for my wife, although she's from outside the U.S. originally.
If anyone's a "pussy" here, boy, I'd say you can go see him in the mirror. Why didn't you take a degree in engineering, or business, or computer science, or medicine, or law instead of whatever worthless shit you did?
herzog, obviously people in our country have differerent prorities to you. Personally my parents didn't beat the crap out of me when I returned after university, they were proud that I had worked my arse off for a degree. Even though I have got a reasonably paid job I still can't afford to leave home and get my own place. As Isaid the price of a one bedroom apartment in my town can cost as much as £160,000, something that I am not able, or willing to pay this early in life. I'm happy, and so are my parents, in waiting, and saving money to pay off my debts and then go travelling. We obviously have different attitudes and priorities. We live in a socialist country, you don't, Doesn't make anyone else's life style any less valid. Although it seems my parent are a little less extreme and don't give me beatings at the age of 23.
Felix - quote -
"Why didn't you take a degree in engineering, or business, or computer science, or medicine, or law instead of whatever worthless shit you did? "
Right.... so you're judging me on the course I took without actually knowing what it was. How do you know it is worthless and how do you know it wasn't engineering you absolute prick!!
Hurtdog - Things are different in the UK. We dont beat the shit out of our children. We dont force them to move out as soon as the opportunity arrises. Not every family decides to live in the same way with the same rules (as you imply). Sounds like families in Britain support each other much more. My parents are happy for me to live here (just for the time being), whilst I save up enough cash to leave...
This is one of the better squabbels I have seen on B&W. Keep it up guys. And "no" Bush is not a conservative, he is whatever will get him votes. If having a mohawk would get him re-elected, he would be at the barber shop tomorrow.
Agreed timmy, individualism and self-reliance are american traits, not european.
Duckhead - I'm so glad you said that. Tis similar to what I was saying when this rediculous bickering began.
Felix: Wow ... *nicely* stated!
Well, if I lived at home my parents wouldn't beat me bloody; they just have a lot on their plate right now because my grandfather is living with them and he's very sick. Also, I just don't think I could do it after I was so happy to move out at 18. This isn't to hate on what you are doing, just a word of advice: do not wind up like my Aunt.
She moved back in with my grandmother (her mother) when she was 24; actually to pay of depts. Once she was finally about done paying them off she decided "I want to be an artist, not a doctor!" so she got a new degree. This happened many times, in fact, it is still happening. My Aunt is not 50 years old. So just a word of advice, don't let it happen to you or people will have a reason to call you names.
Herzog, I may have a home situation more like yours only not as *extreme.* I was never expected to come home except to visit after moving out.
No. The majority of voting Americans are conservatives. So therefore Bush has labelled himself a conservative
No. The majority of voting Americans are conservatives. So therefore Bush has labelled himself a conservative.
Let's start over. Come on felix. At this point you should be creaming in your pants over how intelligent you are, and how childish I am for making such a simplistic comment. Oh Yes, let all have a wank over Felix's super duper knowledge.
It seems like Tommo and Wolfie, who i agree with a lot sometimes took this as an opportunity to tell us americans how much we are missing out because we are not in the UK, and how much better everything is over there...
what the fuck does that have to do with anything, people are tired of your nationalistic european crap as much as people are tired of those people who think america should be the world police because we are smarter than everyone else.
Get over that shit...
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