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COMMENTS:
Blair is dead in the water. Bush is finished barring another terrorist attack that allows him to declare martial law. Most people now realise that Iraq never was a threat but even if Bush and Blair and all the self serving politicos are convicted of war crimes it will not change the system or the general direction that world events are taking. Gordon Brown comes from the same stable as Blair. If Bush is removed then Cheney will be President. Oh dear.
Don't apologize for going on about it. People are dying every day, so we should be thinking about it every day. Thanks for this ballot.
by mojo on Fri Jun 18, 04 8:24am
[+]
hey hey hey, look at that, another stupid ballot that, instead of looking for any reasonable way to get out of the situation in Iraq, as usual just resorts to basic name calling and condemning. No one lied, worst scenario, faulty information, which most people still are not convinced is true in terms of the weapons of mass destruction. It's pretty funny how ignorant people are, because if I ask this one question.. are the Iraqi people better off than they were before, when Saddam's death squads and security forces were killing HUNDREDS of iraqis EVERY day, and imprisoning hundreds more, there is no god damn way you can say they are worse off. The ends justifies the means.
No one lied, worst scenario, faulty information,
Faulty information like the Uranium yellocake documents that the CIA warned were fakes before Colin Powell presented them at the UN? The fuckers that started this war are liars.
They also had members of both the cia and justice department who had good reason to believe the documents are true. What is amazing to me is how people now, with the 20/20 vision provided by ability to look BACK upon events that have transpired, now condemn people who made tough decisions based on the information they had at the time. Congress and Bush led America into this war, including the beloved John Kerry, this is something also to remember. Finger pointing doesn't solve anything at this point, the war happened, it's still happening, the best thing now is to work towards the transfer of power, and in time gradually leave Iraq.
The Niger uranium documents were obvious fakes. Names mentioned were no longer working in the organisation at the time of the supposed writing as well as other factual innacuracies that would not have crept in if the documents had been authentic. Which members of the CIA and Justice Depts. believed they were true and what reasons did they give for their opinions?
Remember a guy called Scott Ritter? He was former weapons inspector who begged the U.S. government not to start that war. He knew the information was faulty. His character was impugned, he was even labeled crazy - and everything he said turned out to be true. That was 20/20 foresight, not hindsight.
I don't think wolf_nipple_chips is pointing fingers, he's just pointing out the truth. There's a difference.
by mojo on Fri Jun 18, 04 8:43am
[+]
So if you truly believe the president lied about WMD, with knowledge that there were no WMD, then why the hell didn't he just PLANT WMD in Iraq to cover his ass? I'm amazed at how common sense doesn't seem to get thru to the sector of people who just want to believe so deeply that one person led this country to war, it's really disheartening. Again, I suppose the fact that, despite the bullshit you are being spoon fed by the media, the Iraqi people are better off than they were before the war? Does this not make a bit of difference to some of you? Talk to people over there, it's doubtful wolfnipples has any friends in the military, too bad, because if he did, he'd get to hear first hand how things are going from those who are actually there and who do not have any hidden agendas involved with selling more newspapers or getting better television ratings with yellow journalism.
It wasn't just one person. There is a whole cabal of people in government that had for war for years. jappy obviously hasn't read the PNAC documents. Or is it Jappy or japPY? Not sure.
This planting of weapons is a creative new theory to excuse GWB's lies. The logistics involved in a project like that would be staggering. But whatever floats your boat.
As far as being spoon-fed by the media, I try to get both sides of every story, and I like to listen to C-SPAN whenever I can. I have acquaintances in the military because my dad was career air force and has contacts with people of all ages in our armed forces.
Where are you getting your information from?
(BTW, nothing personal jappy - as you know, I'm a big fan!)
by mojo on Fri Jun 18, 04 9:17am
[+]
jappy, please don't call me ignorant, because I am not. And yes, PERHAPS the iraqy's are better off, only time can tell. However, that does not mean we should forget about the so called reasons for inflicting a year of pure hell onto a country of innocent people.
Reasons that have since been proven to be completely false.
From day one, after the september 11th attacks, your government knew that this was the perfect oportunity to deal with Iraq.
A government should check it facts over and over before invading a country and killing thousands. If a commision can establish some clear evidence then why didn't our governments strive to assertain the truth before they inflicted such a terrible things on a country.
They knew full well what the facts were and they ignored them. That explains why to begin with it was an attempt to stop terrorism, then it was an attempt to rid saddam of WMD, then it was an attempt for Regime change. They saw their weak arguement falling apart.
The fact is everything we were told was wrong. They knew that as long as they kept on spoon feeding us these lies for a year or so, then people would forget about it and concentrate on the so called liberated people of Iraq. which you seem to be doing Jappy, and ignoring the devious chain of events that got us to this point.
And this isn't a stupid poll. It's an extremely important and relevant issue that needs to be discussed. Looks in you own ballot box for stupid polls jappy.
The war itself was staged for the cameras.The Iraqi's had withdrawn and with their weapons to prepare for a guerilla war.Most of the war footage was simply hollywood or not even happening.Mostly civilians were being killed and taken hostage and that happened after the war.All of the independent journalists killed was by the US and intentionally.
The war was about taking the contracts from France and Russia who have now been shut out.
The regime being installed is an american appointed one and to serve and be compliant to their interests.Hussein was no longer the golden Boy because he no longer was being their asspirate.So he had to goThis is the same story each and every time.An industrial Racket and unseating regimes even if democratically elected and with popular support by various tactics.
The iraqies don't feel better off they have lost their country and have some people from the other side of the world tell them whats best to do.The people don't have food now and don't have jobs and bombs are blowing up people cant go to work they dont have electrcity how are they better? Saddam may have been a brute but the people were better off with him serving then what they have now.You cant froce revolutions on people when they arnt ready iraq is a screwup people keep saying its better and are defending it face it people its a mess its worse then afganistan now this is going to take years of rebuilding to get it where it was before the war.Also the entire war is based on lies there isnt much support to go to war because some country may the slightest chance have weapons of mass destruction.Iraq is a failure i havnt seen anything good come out of it and probebly wont for a long time so all you supporters of the war in 20 years what are you going to say i told you so.
Sunnis & Shias Denounces New Government, Sadr Say US Puppet PM Is CIA Agent
Jun 07, 2004
Translated And Compiled By Muhammad Abu Nasr, Free Arab Voice, Edited by JUS
The Imam of the Sunni Mosque of Abu Hanifah in Baghdad sharply attacked the newly appointed puppet so-called government of Iraq in a Friday sermon. Shaykh Ahmad as-Samarrai said that it was the embodiment of American hegemony in Iraq and that a transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis could not take place in the shadow of an American veto.
The Sunni religious leader said, they call this an election, but it isnt an election. Its nothing but American hegemony. Whomever they want is a part of it; whomever they dont want is kicked out.
Agence France Presse (AFP) reported Shaykh as-Samarrai as asking, Where is the Iraqi sovereignty if decisions having to do with security matters are subject to an American veto? Where is the Iraqi sovereignty when the US says that its forces are going to remain in Iraq?
The Shaykh went on: They promise us that after seven months there will be a new legal code and an election. But how can this come about when hegemony dominates those who write, when there is supervision over every committee. . . . They want to have a joke at our expense.
There is no sovereignty if security affairs are in other hands than ours. There is no sovereignty if military affairs are in other hands than ours. There is no sovereignty if the oil affairs are in other hands than ours, reiterated the Imam of the Abu Hanifah mosque.
Muqtada As-Sadr: US-Appointed Prime Minister Is A CIA Agent. New Iraqi Government Has No Authority
In a Friday sermon delivered on his behalf by Jabir al-Khafaji in the Mosque of al-Kufah, Shii religious leader Muqtada as-Sadr attacked the newly installed American puppet government. According to al-Jazeera satellite TV, as-Sadr described Iyyad Allawi, the newly appointed puppet so-called prime minister, as an American CIA agent.
Agence France Presse (AFP) quoted as-Sadr as sharply rejecting the new puppet so-called government, saying that it had no authority over him. As-Sadr said, I declare that I will have nothing to do with this government until Judgement Day because the people reject it. As-Sadr added, our government must be legally elected. The Iraqi people will never accept a government appointed by the occupier.
As-Sadr declared: I cant imagine any rational person or any religious authority accepting this appointment. I will have nothing to do with this government.
Puppet Inspection Unit Established To Protect American Invaders From Resistance Attacks
Eyewitnesses in Baghdad reported that the newly created Iraqi puppet army had established a unit for special inspections in the area between an-Nuayriyah and al-Amin behind the New Baghdad district. This unit in fact was engaged in searching passing cars, resulting in a tight traffic jam as cars backed up for great distances to be subjected to extensive searches in the Iraqi capital.The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported that the inspection unit set up by the puppet army was created in response to the repeated blows delivered by the Iraqi Resistance on a daily basis particularly in the area of the puppet strongpoint at the so-called military college which is also the US occupation forces headquarters in that district of the occupied Iraqi capital.
I think the war in Iraq was first put on the drawing board in the 70s
Good ballot, nip chips.
I'm thoroughly pissed off that my country took part in an aggressive war based on lies, half-truths and dodgy pretexts.
Whatever the benefits to large US and UK corporations - and I'm sure there are many - the world is now much more unsafe for the average US and UK citizen thanks to Bush & Blair.
An attempt to plant evidence for WMDs failed with an american being killed when they tried
and the US Intelligence know perfectly well its a popular resistance.They said so back in November
no, we did a good thing by removing an evil dictator from power
I listen to no one who copies and pastes from a website, bigmonkeynuts.
Concerned on a daily basis. This whole slippery slope scares out of me. The U.S. is going to be in Iraq until the End of Freaking Time. In my circles, we refer to it as the Fifty-First State. It's over that damned oil and Dubya's need to avenge the wrong the UN did his daddy by making him pull out of Iraq bak in the '90s when we were just sixty miles from Baghdad, and it's gonna cost us a damnsight more than of us are willing to pay, though, in the jingoistic fervor that the administration has whipped up among the rank-and-file Republicraps has them believing with all the fury they normally reserve for the worship of their Gods (Money and Religion). Give them a decade of body bags coming into Dover AFB (a thing I shudder at the thought of, being ex-military myself)...
If you all are so concerned why don't you do something about it instead of whining about it? Whining will do nothing, and if you are truly so concerned wouldn't you do something? Or, as I suspect, do you just like whining for the sake of being heard?
"I listen to no one who copies and pastes from a website, bigmonkeynuts. "
Rather melodramatic of you.
It is a news report.They are the words of the Iraqis which directly supports the fact that insurgent war will go on.
My own personal comments are not cut and paste
emilyknotz, I'm not whining at all thankyou, i'm criticisng. The is a discussion website, some I am discussing. You can be concerned without bieng proactive, and there is nothing I can do about it anyway, its already been done. We are talking about past events.
emilyknots - Its better that we are aware of what is happening and whinge about it than be completely ignorant.
Jappy - For some reason I thought you were intelegent.....
The Bush administration is a criminal organization. Wolfowitz, Cheney, Richard Perl, the zionist lobby, energy mafia, and masses of christian fundamentalist tribulationists have brought about the most corrupt policies and actions ever undertaken by an American administration.
they have found wmds you fking idiot listen to the news sometime.and we knew they had them in the first place because we left them there after the war with iran.Seren gas was used on our soldiers not to long ago and that is a weapon of mass destruction.So dont write polls when you obviously dont know the facts.
"Jappy - For some reason I thought you were intelegent..... "
mojo dammit *L* it's intelligent, and normally I wouldn't correct it but come on, in this context... heh, I can't help but do so
ballot 38098
I can't really respond to anything anymore, someone is absolutely hammering my karma thru comments and ballot choices negative ratings, because all my ballot ratings are positive, yet my rating still drops like oprah off a cliff.
velviar2k, it is a known fact that they used to have them, America gave to to them in the Iran/Iraq war. I'm not disputing that. But unfortunately my friend, there is no substantial evidence of WMD, certainly not to the same level we were lead to beleive. What news channel do you watch? Fox?.
Here's a quote from velviar2k - "Bush is a visonary". HaHaHaHaHaHAHA!
velviar2k - Wouldn't have guessed that you lived in Texas.
Jappy - Spelling and Grammar has nothing to do with intelect. Again, I thought you were more intel'L'egent than that
jappy. I thought you were going to ignore political ballots after I asked the specific questions:
Which members of the CIA and Justice Depts. believed they were true and what reasons did they give for their opinions?
In case you have forgotten I was talking about the CIA people who knew that the Niger yellowcake documents were fakes.
velviar2k, and if you are refering to the small traces of Sarin, found in a missile that predate's 1990, that is not classed as a WMD.
WMD - does anyone else remember this being used to mean nuclear weapons.
It was always Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
so why dont you think Sarin counts then?
Because it was a tiny amount that predated the supposed current weapons programme. It was more like a residue as opposed to an actual quantity.
WNC - You callin me a commie?
"Slightly" concerned? No. Livid with rage? You bet!
I agree, wolf_nip ... to paraphrase that Conservative icon Bob Dole (whom I voted for!): WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?!?
jappy: There *is* no decent way to get out. When you throw a crystal vase out the window, you don't debate what kind of flowers you'll put in it at dinner. It's going to get busted and get busted bad. All we can do is see if the pieces can be picked up.
Jappy: PLUS ... some of us *are* outraged by this. If someone cut off your leg, would you say "Well, what's done is done ... time to think about how I'll get around." Or do you harbor more than a little anger at the son-of-a-pup who got you into the situation?
the only reason Bush hasn't been impeached is because the Republicans control the Congress and are holding to party unity. If Clinton had done HALF of what Bush has done, they'd have tied him to a stake and thrown torches.
Yes, I am still harping on what happened and am still furious.
Re: The Iraqi people are better off with an evil dictator gone.
How DARE you bring that up?!? The American people would have NEVER countenanced a PRE-EMPTIVE invasion on those grounds. Be honest with yourselves, if not others: That was an excuse after-the-fact, not a reason.
A.very concerned
B.That sair gas was not explosive. In other words,it was a can full of sarin
C.Its not Americas responsibility to fix crimes by others which Im starting to question if he was bad.
d.The media doesnt focus on the reality of war.
(no more comments)
I just hate the fact that our marines are dying over there.That shit hole is not good enough to take our marines' lives.
Clinton lied when he said, "I was one hour away from getting Osama bin Laden". He was approached three times by the Sudanese gov't to turn Osama over to the U.S. Three times he turned it down, we didn't have any criminal grounds to hold Osama. Clinton could have done something but he did not!
Bush was mislead on intellagance also, you simply forget to mention that.
who really cares there would be a war anyway so why not free some people from a dictator instead of a war for nothing
most iraqi's aren't complaining about the war so why should we
What exactly were the lies and in what context were they deceitful?
samiyam: Is that supposed to be a joke?
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