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COMMENTS:
He (calling God 'he' for the sake of argument) knew we couldn't resist a challenge and so he devised a test to surpass all other tests - Life. Complete with free will to choose our own route back to base.
Just a hypothesis.
But God knows exactly what choices you would make before he even created you. So the idea of free will is null and void. So why did he create serial killers? and rapists? and paedophiles? for his own amusement? pretty sick if you ask me...
I see God more as an artist who is always creating an eternal masterpiece. He may not even know what the end result will look like. Only that it will be beautiful eventually.
And there may not be an end result, if eternity is truly endless. Maybe that's why we over-simplify. Because it may be beyond all human comprehension.
How can God not know ANYTHING? Are you telling me God is imperfect then? Doesnt the thought of an imperfect being having that much power frighten you?
I didn't say he was imperfect. He does know everything, at least I think he does, but may be willing to allow us to co-create with him in our own tiny seemingly insignificant ways. A bit like threads in a tapestry: The individual threads are part of the picture.
And no, God doesn't terrify me. I think he's the coolest. :)
That all sounds very flowery and nice but what does it actually mean?
God is everything, he creates everything. We have no power to create/do/act in any way that he didnt predict before the beginning of time. We are not an experiment because God already knows the result. So why bother making humans at all?
And how exactly are paedophiles, rapists and murderers "co-creating" with God? What part does he intend them to play?
They could be rejects, flawed threads that he'll fling in the trash if they don't tighten up...OK, I'm done with the thread analogy.
What if (let's just suppose) that a few bits and pieces in the Bible are actually true. Say there really had been a war in heaven. And say Lucifer had been cast down to earth, with his league of evil angels (I call them evangelists, lol) to lurk here for countless millennia.
Say he's here right now, with a million different disguises.
Along come us puny humans, naked and blind, but with a powerful curiosity, a developed sense of self and an inbuilt consciousness that acts as a barometer for right and wrong, a bit like a spiritual compass. Say we follow the wrong direction and fail on our allotted (or self-selected) tasks. We get lost. Along comes old Lucifer or one of his minions and lures us away for a while. We may turn to the darkness or we may turn to the light. We may do both during our lifetime, but ultimately we may have a final decision to make. Repent and go with God or go with Lucifer? And if we go with Lucifer, we may cease to exist as spiritual beings, be cast into blank nothingness. But God, being all-powerful, all-knowing and all-forgiving may give Lucifer a final chance: To reconcile with God or be destroyed with his minions (which would include any rapists, serial murderers, paedophiles or any other human who remained rebellious to God) into nothingness.
How do we know God won't forgive all of his creation if they seek him and are truly sorry for the mess they've caused?
If God is love, he'll even forgive Lucifer ultimately.
But of course, this is all hypothetical.
I just believe that God is greater than any of us can imagine, and so is his capacity for love. He may be the source of all love.
ZIG
"They could be rejects"
so God makes mistakes? Meaning he is imperfect surely?
"Along come us puny humans" We didnt just appear, God sent us into the world. And he knew Eve would eat the apple before time began. So why punish them for something he caused them to do? Thats not very fair.
"a developed sense of self and an inbuilt consciousness that acts as a barometer for right and wrong, a bit like a spiritual compass"
So why would we follow the wrong path? Obviously some of us are lacking these things.
"How do we know God won't forgive all of his creation if they seek him and are truly sorry for the mess they've caused?"
Why should they ask God for his forgiveness when he caused the whole mess? There is no such thing as free will, only gods will. So God willed there would be rapists etc etc
"If God is love, he'll even forgive Lucifer ultimately"
GOD should be asking LUCIFER for forgiveness, for creating him when he knew he would be evil.
God created evil, why?
so many questions and flaws.. so few answers ..
In the Bible it doesn't say that Eve ate an apple, just a fruit, nor does it say that she forced Adam to eat it, just that he ate it also. (But personally I suspect that the story of Adam and Eve might have been a load of old hokey to subjugate women.)
Maybe it's all a grand experiment to enable us to grow up to the next spiritual level.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe all the answers are within you and you've always known what your role is.
Maybe that's why we're here, to figure it all out.
Maybe not.
Lol
so ur saying you have no idea, right?
Or maybe not..
Or maybe you you do..
Or maybe not..
:)
I'm saying that I know for myself, but I wouldn't presume to tell you what the truth is. That's your job. ;)
I have to ask you though, why on Earth do YOU believe in God when you cant answer those questions? Isnt that a bit naive?
If it exists (the god thing) it has no consciousness but for the sake of the argument here, possibly it would create the bad guy for the following reasons:
-boredom
-to teach us appreciation of the good stuff
-to pawn off the punisher position on someone else so that it (the god thing) can remain good and stuff
-to destroy things that will destroy us before they destroy us (DAMN I'm eloquent, ain't I?)
well, that's all I can think of for now, draw, but I'll be back ;)
My questions are different from yours.
I could answer your questions from my own standpoint, but who am I to tell YOU what the truth is? To do so would make me a religious zealot, and I'll never be one of those.
There is no such thing as free will, only gods will. - Docdraw
That's the main part I disagree with in your argument. I believe we have been gifted with free will. Which makes a world of difference.
ZIG
No, never become a religious Zealot. But telling me your OPINION doesnt mean that.
The only way you CAN work out the truth is through debate, its the magical ingredient for progress.
I can respect anyones opnion/belief if they have sound logic behind it. If they just say they believe it thats no good.
Why are your questions different to mine? Are you suggesting you HAVE the answers to my questions already? surely you arent suggesting they arent important. If something is flawed why would you want to spend time worshipping it?
finally ..
" There is no such thing as free will, only gods will. - Docdraw "
I like the way you have written my comments as if it was a famous quote or something, makes me feel really important!
Thanks ;)
ahem.. fluffy love kitten *blush*
Boredom sounds the most likely reason from what you said.
God could have just BUILT IN an appreciation for the good things when he made humans if he wanted.
" to pawn off the punisher position on someone else so that it (the god thing) can remain good and stuff "
Why do we even NEED a punisher of any sort. God could have made us to do no wrong if he had wanted to. Thus eliminating the need for punishment.
" to destroy things that will destroy us before they destroy us (DAMN I'm eloquent, ain't I?) "
I have absolutely no idea what this ones about! It might be the cleverest thing since E=MC squared, but i dont have a clue!
Good points though :)
God is a tyrant in the sky! And if he's the beginning and the END?! Then eternal life can't really be eternal. Jesus was a better man then God would ever know.
Noooooo....My questions are no better or worse than yours, just different.
I used to wonder the same things: "Why, if there IS a God, does he allow all this pain, etc"
I almost had to die to find out. Seriously. And the truth came at me all at once, like BAM! A white light. Then I realized I hadn't been right in my thinking and everything I'd chosen in my life was hurting me; and not just me, but others. So I changed my thinking, and now the questions have changed, too. But I still have questions.
Just to clarify. Last comment from me was to DocDraw, not to Winnie the Pooh.
:o)
Hmmm ... interesting question ...
Soem maintain that the worst evils are not created by God but by Man. Of course, the question of free-will vs God's omnipotence is another paradox that has confounded theologians through the centuries.
I might hypothesize that God *could* know it all, but chose to block that ability so as to allow true free will. Just conjecture on my part, admittedly.
As for the theodicy question of how God can allow evil ... (again, just hypothesizing), I conjecture that by putting into effect the possibility of randomness, he has removed himself as a direct agent.
god is a cold heartless bitch, commandments 7 through 10 clearly show us god is a women, how do we know Eve wasn't created first? The bible has many versions and were all rewritten by white men. how do we know now if the bible is true. Tithing?! Why the fuck would god need 10% of our money every week? Heavens streets are supposed to be made of gold! tithing is probably something the catholics added in the bible. god is evil, a tyrant as filthy as our oppressing governments! he shouldn't be feared! He shouldn't be trusted!
God isn't a white man, I'm pretty sure of that, Winnie_the_pooh. And he doesn't listen to governments.
Nah, he looks like the creature in 'South Park' that was god.
If God exists then he is no more intelligent or moral than the worst of humans.
The south park God was great.
How can you be sure God isnt a white man? Have you seen him? I mean LITERALLY seen him, not "i see him in my heart everyday" or all that.
Cathexis
Good points
"I might hypothesize that God *could* know it all, but chose to block that ability so as to allow true free will"
Why would God do this? Is he BORED with being all Powerful (like maybe a couple of users on this site!)
The essential problem with both your points though is what is God achieving through this?
He is perfection already, what could an imperfect version of himself possibly do that he couldnt already. Its futile unless you accept that God is imperfect.
DD: Could well be. But what strikes me first is that I have insufficient information to really come to any conclusions or opinions beyond speculation.
I'd need to hear His side of it before I could confidently make such an assertion.
Unfortunately he nevers seems to be at home lately, and hes always ignoring my calls ..
*sigh*
hehe same here Doctordraw. This "Problem of Evil" is a common atheistic argument. It's a tough question, but I must say that I am with Doctordraw on this one. In my philosophy class we debated this topic to the end. A philosopher once argued,
1. If God were all powerful, all knowing, and all good, then this world would be the best possible.
2. But surely this world is not the best possible world
3. Thus, God is not all powerful, all-knowing, and all good
After doing a lot of thought over the years, I would have to say that the religion Deism best describes my beliefs. To me, God created the world and left it in our own hands. Sorry for writing you all a book! :)
But why would he do that? It would always be in his own hands because he KNOWS the outcome before he even creates. There is nothing random about it. We have no free will.
And for what purpose? Is he bored of being all powerful, and desires to experience imperfection?
To be honest I'm kind of stuck in the middle. I'm not sure whether I believe in God or not. My opinion: There is either no God, or an absent God.
And about your comment "we have no free will". That is a scary thought, and if true it backs up your previous opinion that God is "unpleasant and sick". What kind of "God" would put his "beloved humans" through such torment. Look at the world today. If God is aware that all this is happening, and if God had planned this all, I plan to give him a kick to the balls if I ever see him. Why would God make good people go bad, or mentally ill? So IF there is a God, i don't think he is a good God. Sorry if that didn't make sense, I'm in a hurry ask questions if you want me to clarify.
this should have been a yes/no ballot
LOL
He is right and you are wrong just remember that ZIG.
Bow 2 the queen
You said it!
So your answer on a yes/no ballot would have been... yes?
... it would have been HELL YEAH
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