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COMMENTS:
No, he was probably all of 19 years old and scared to death. He had no idea if those guys were setting them up for an ambush or if they were boobytrapped. It was a horrible situation and I'm sure the kid will be haunted with his decision the rest of his life. (as I'm sure the rest of the world will keep reminding him and all of America)
Who is gloating? Its an incident that happened today, should it go by without comment?
I cannot understand your attitude Larry, he shot the guy.
My question was will anyone be shocked by it, given the heavy support by many of the pro war factions on this site and around the world?
Steel, those of us with consciences will be bothered. There are, unfortunately, far too many who will just say, "One down, a few million more to go."
I just asked the question that was bound to be asked by one person on the site.
Larry may be tired of the world, but I still have high hopes for it.
sure
** karma **
Well, I guess I would expect that from someone as truly disturbed as you SOT.
Thankfully, the rest of are civilised human beings and will try and take a balanced view of the world where possible.
And as for your silly point about a soldier / marine, if semantics is only thing you have left, well I have nothing but pity for you.
I would have done the same. He was playing dead. He could have had a grenade on him and when American troops came close, he would have blown them all up. It's not like terrorists fight according to the Geneva Convention. We are not fighting an organized uniformed army here. We are fighting radical terrorists that don't obey any rules according to the Geneva Convention. If they want to booby trap themselves then they should all prepare to be shot on the spot if they do not comply. How many of our soldiers are now going to be killed or maimed because of media reports such as these? They serve no purpose except to give the enemy aid and comfort. Liberalism is alive and well and is still trying to dethrone democracy.
That comment should have been made by American_Patriot_II
that wasn't helpful supportourtroops
Is this the same Geneva Convention that the US rejected recently? Do you mean THAT Geneva Convention?
So basically what you are saying is, that prisoners should be shot on the spot, and we should be as barbarous as the 'vicious animals'?
If this soldier had your mentality, its no wonder he did what he did. When you dehumanise the enemy, is so much easier to murder.
Did they not do the same thing 60 years ago?
ok, you go into a country. Not knowing who the enemy is. Whaether that Iraqi had a grenade hidden under his shirt or not. Go on dreaming how the world is safe. YOU LIVE IN A FANTASY WORLD.
Of course this is a media spin.
Being an ex soldier, I know exactly what the dangers of an enemy are.
I have never had to shoot unarmed people, and I am glad of that.
As for them being 'terrorists' I think you will find they believe they are rebels, fighting for their country. So I guess spin goes both ways.
I think the point I am making is, are we better than the enemy we fight, or are we no better than them?
If you justify the shooting, because 'they do it' then noone has any moral high ground.
I actually wasnt criticising the shooting per se, but asking if some on this site would react in exactly the way some have.
because
if that offends you ,I'm sorry, but that's how I see it
Many ballots offend many different people, if I took into consideration how many people would be annoyed when I created a ballot, I would never post one.
Just so I clear up this point. as much as I am against the illegal war in Iraq, I do support the troops there that were sent by our relevant leaders. They are doing a difficult job under difficult circumsatnces.
It is possible to criticise the motives of out politicians and hope that the soldiers come back alive and well.
I just hope they are given all the care and consideration the veterans of the first Gulf War did not recieve.
I do understand, that you find any opposing voice disheartening, but if you want a world where noone can speak freely, perhaps your values need to be reassessed.
As I WAS a 'British' soldier, I can answer that quite easily. I would be offended that a soldier in my regiment ever committed such an act.
Sometimes, in life Larry, it is not possible to defend the indefesible.
I also support your brother over there. he is fighting in a war that could easily become a war of attrition.
Sometimes soldiers are put in harms way by those who command them, and 99% of the time they are justified, 1% of the time they are sacrificed for political ends.
You may feel like any criticism of any policy of a politician must be agreed with, because you have been told you have to. I know through bitter experience and seeing friends of mine die, that sometimes the ends do not always justify the means.
Perhaps there was a smirk there, because deep down you wanted it to be there. And you saw what you wanted to see.
I never said I supportd this war, but I do support the troops and wait before passing judgement.
she is always smirking
I 'rushed' to my computer?
Now you resort to a personal attack on me, fine... I could hardly expect any better from someone who is so obviously seeing conspiracy in anything he doesnt agree with.
I was sitting at my computer, with the news on, and thought it would make an interesting ballot.
You seem to feel that the only ballot worth doing is one that praises George W Bush, the war in Iraq and blind faith in your leaders.
I dont believe you are stupid, perhaps naive.
As to rushing to judgement, it seemed a pretty open and shut case.
You are unlikely to agree with me, as you believe I am a 'liberal pinko' which I am not, I just have a lot of life experience and Im a pragmatist.
sorry I'm so intense, but when it comes to my bro, defensive
I don't know man. maybe if my brother was not over there I would have different opinions.. lets not argue anymore about it
I hope he makes it, along with all the others.
Too many kids die for dubious causes these days.
" Is this the same Geneva Convention that the US rejected recently? Do you mean THAT Geneva Convention? "
When did America "reject" the Geneva Convention, Steel? Did I miss an important news tidbit here? Or are you referring to America's differential treatment of terrorists, in general? If it's the latter, allow me to remind you that the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. It applies to uniformed military and civilians.
From the Geneva Convention:
In order for the distinction between combatants and civilians to be clear, combatants must wear uniforms and carry their weapons openly during military operations and during preparation for them.
The exceptions are medical and religious personnel, who are considered non-combatants even though they may wear uniforms. Medical personnel may also carry small arms to use in self-defense if illegally attacked.
The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.
Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups and thus endanger the civilian population are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention.
Haven't seen the news on this but if it's as you say, he just shot an unarmed POW for no apparent reason, then this man should be courthmarshalled and punished accordingly. Now that that's out of the way, let's get to the fun stuff:
The same people who said we musn't all muslims for the terrorsts beheadings of bound prisoners will use this news to condemn all american soldiers.
The conspiracy nuts who said all the beheading videos had to have been fakes will accept this unquestioningly. I'm not saying this story is fake, but it is hypocritical of them to accept one on 'faith' and not the other.
And herzogs final prediction: michael moore will find some way to make money off this.
I do not believe I have ever called the behea ding a hoax? I condemn those actions as vigor ously as any other act of barb arism.
I dont under stand why the Michael Moore comment was made, is it illegal to make a living if you are not toeing the party line?
And so onto Walters point. As far as I am conc erned, the people in Iraq fighting the current occu pation from coalition forces are Iraqi with a few other nationals supp orting them. Is it your cont ention that the Iraqis have no right to defend their country from illegal occu pation?
For instance, if a foreign power invaded the US, would you condemn Americans for fighting the occu pation forces, calling them terrorists?
Just because the current admin istration calls the res istance in Iraq, terrorists doesnt make it so.
If my country was invaded, I would take up arms against the invader, and Im sure most people of good conscience would do so too.
Apologies for broken words, B&W seems to be acting up tonight.
Good point Steelhamster.
Its all about perspective, and unfortunately that is ONE thing right wing Americans seem to lack, the ability to look at OTHERS perspective. Whether its the poor, immigrants, non_ christians or opponents in the " war on terror" ( lol ) sometimes you have to put yourself in the enemies boots.
I don't believe I directed my comments at you steel. My message was for anyone who fits that description, if you don't then it's not for you.
Now if I'd said 'conspiracy nuts like steelhamster . . . ', I could see getting angry. But I didn't.
Then I of course retract any inference I may have made regarding the beheadings and offer an apology.
Oh and an afterthought, I rarely get angry, and never online.
I never take any criticism personally, as noone really knows anyone online, and so what would be the point :=)
Disgusted, but not altogether surprised.
War is madness.
lol doctor, saying right wing won't look at others views, check some of the comments about us , you simply call us stupid and thats the end of your arguement. I think both sides have problems listening to the point of view of the other
Oh right, I forgot to answer the question: no I'm not surprised.
Let me clarify. I'm not bashing our troops in any way, when it comes to keeping war civilized we're near the top of the list. But all wars have atrocities. Every man is capable of mistakes, especially under stress. The only difference between this and say, wwII or korea is the number of cameras, which only increase the chances of catching something like this on film. It was bound to happen eventually. I'm glad it has taken this long is such a relatively minor thing, one man not a village.
The great thing about the US is that here we punish war crimes, the people we're fighting encourage them.
" The great thing about the US is that here we punish war crimes, the people we're fighting encourage them. "
The difference is these are people who consider it an INVASION rather than a war. They are also people who are reacting to their country men being killed by bombs from the sky.
Can you honestly say YOU wouldnt do the same if you got your hands on one of the " invaders" Herzog?
As far as i know no GOVERNMENT has approved the beheadings and war crimes etc These are normal people. Very angry normal people.
If I lived in a dictatorship and was invaded by forces from a free democratic nation? I'd be rather happy about the prospect. If it was the other way around? Then I'd fight back.
And we aren't figthing a government here, we're fighting an organization. Well a number of organizations with roughly the same goal and tactics. And these organizations encourage their members to commit warcrimes. Actually I don't see how you could be a terrorist and NOT commit war crimes.
But then if you are fighting a " war" they ARENT terrorists, they are enemy combatants!
The phrase " war on terror" itself is shot through with contradictions.
And the people in Guantanamo Bay arent receiving their rights are they?
They aren't soldiers as they don't wear uniforms to identify themselves and are not fighting for a nation. These are the rules according to the geneva convention for an enemy combatant to be treated as a soldier. Given that they don't wear uniforms and try to mingle with the general populace we could rightly treat them as spies and execute them out of hand, and it would entirely legal.
And a war is defined as:
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
Wars don't have to involve nations, or soldiers by the legal definition.
An interesting question would be what defines a war crime?
Is it the beheadings, or the indiscriminate bombing of 100,000 civilians?
As the US refused to sign up to the protocol, that would try war criminals of whatever nation, it is difficult for them to take the moral high ground when it comes to who should and should not be punished.
" They aren't soldiers as they don't wear uniforms to identify themselves and are not fighting for a nation."
Maybe they arent soldies because they ACTUALLY arent soldiers! and werent fighting! How do you know until you give them a TRIAL?
you got your wish
" And a war is defined as:
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. "
So whats the definition of an invasion then?
I must ask you Larry, why do you come to this site?
This is a site, that is set up for one reason, for individuals to debate their point of view.
Some of it can get heated, and some degenerates to downright abuse, but healthy debate is the bedrock of afree society.
When debate is curbed, we are on the road to a fascist state.
It seems to me, that your faith cannot be that strong, if you feel it cannot stand up to scrutiny.
People being 'godless' shouldnt bother you, if you have faith,what difference does it make?
Steel, if I pick up a weapon - and I am not in my nation's military - and aim for the "invading" soldiers, I am now an enemy combatant, and thus the rules change.
I'm just tired of this world steelhamster
by larrynelmira on Nov 15, 2004
Piss off and make excuses for war criminals in bed, then.
Keep making excuses for the war criminals, WalterPeckEPA. Also please feel free to pretend that burning airplane fuel, burning paper and carpets melted solid steel. You are a liar.
Bye kids.
Too many cartoons makes you see the world like a cartoon.
Remember I said that America would be isolated and hated around the world? Remember? It's only just getting started, so get used to it if you are a sensitive, young ignoramus like larry or her-blog.
I thought I was a zionist-bush-cia operative cretin. You really should learn to keep your conspiracies straight.
What's that her-blog? You'd vote for serial groper and Nazi sympathiser, Arnold Schwarzenegger? It makes sense to me that you would, seeing as you believe that mankind is inherently violent. Maybe makind has watched too many of Arnie's films.
I'd vote for arnold, he isn't a nazi sympathizer, that's simply a conveinent lie that you've made up.
He admired Hitler. He said he loves Kurt Waldheim. He was photographed doing a Nazi salute. Are you sure i'm lying, her-blog?
Let me guess, cretin: You've been living in a nuclear bomb shelter since 1960, right? That would explain your penchant for conspiracy theories.
Hitler had many admirable qualities, he was an excellent speaker, good organizer, hard working and passionate about his beliefs. There, I said something good about hitler. Does that mean I agree with his politics? Nope, I never said anything of the sort. Does it mean I think he was a good person? No, nowhere did I state a moral opinion of him.
You and your kind try to twist quotes so far out of context that they're barely recognizable.
Oh, to answer your question yes, you are most definately a liar.
I don't see why anyone should stay silent about this. If someone made a poll about an English soldier killing a civilian it'd be all over the headlines and people like S_O_T would rant about how English people have no morals. The courts will probably give this war criminal a few months in jail and he might get expelled from the Army. Should it really matter? When he comes out of prison he'll be a national hero. I can see it now. They'll probably give him a parade for the "horror" he went through when he murdered that civilian. SOT, he had no weapons on him, no grenades, no bombs, he was a prisoner. The one thing I hate the most is when people try to justify the actions of these terrorist killers. (As Bush likes to say) If anyone has a problem with what I say you know what you can do.
it didn`t happen.fox news says americans are the good guys and wear white hats.they don`t torture,rape and pillage,they forgive their enemies and the female soldier keep firing until all of their round are gone.god bless `murka
You are such a sad case, her-blog.
You and your kind try to twist quotes so far out of context that they're barely recognizable.
by herzog on Nov 16, 2004
I can barely recognise your quotes I do it so much, her-blog. Who typed the above quote again? I need the context! Give me the context! Oh where is the context, her-blog? What have I done? Ha ha.
Real quote and context: Can you think of anything good to say about hitler?
Arnold: 'I think hitler was a rermakable public speaker'
Cretins interpretion 'OMG! schwarzenegger said he loves hitler and wants to establish the fourth reich, what a fucking nazi'
Reality is lost on you.
how many different ways can scummy british cowards ask this question.
british forces have killed more non combatant citizens then the marines will ever be able to even contemplate.
The so called british society is a failure of drunk welfare recipient appeasers.
no, these guys are being shot at & dealing with rigged bodies & would be killers pretending to be dead so it's just part of dealing with these guys as one man put it, these people weren't there because they are K-mart shoppers, they still not accepting that Saddam , their favrt. luv puppy is out & they can't terriorize the masses any longer. Some people think that the insurgnts. are from Bin ladin's camp, f.y.i ya need to bone up on yr facts man, people that support our troops aren't racist & don't use the term you used in yr heading
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