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COMMENTS:
Great ballot, point made.
I'd be in favor of dropping some bombs on Mexican nationals but not giving back even the smallest amount of land. Those states would be poor today if Americans had never taken them.
Common sense and logic will never work as tools for understanding the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Remember the episode LET THAT BE YOUR LAST BATTLEFIELD from the original Star Trek? Reminds me of Israel and Palestine.
But . . . but that's totally different. Jews are EVIL!!!!!!!!
Wait, sorry, it's 'zionists' now, yeah that's the new code word.
/typical anti-israel rant.
Yes. They should also return all the territory they stole from the indians.
Mexicans and others loosely affiliated with them will declare it for themselves eventually.It will be easy to do when they are the clear majority.
I can't believe that fucking her-blog. Anti-semitism and hating Zionism isn't the same thing at all. If he deliberately confuses the two then he's the one who should be criticised.
He self-righteously complains about another "typical" anti-Israel rant when he is always moaning and whining about France, Canada, Britain etc.
What he wants is for people to associate criticism of Israel with racism, not natural abhorrance of a violent regime.
So how can you explain the double standarts? Why isn't the US criticized for "their land grab", other than the obvious different common concepts on good enlightened democratic(...)American and the evil greedy jews?
by Yosi on Mon Dec 20, 04 3:27am
[+]
I think my post is pretty self explanatory. I certainly don't need to be getting into a "debate" with you, Yosi.
I don't see how your post adresses the sole criticism of Israel for things that all other nations do. But I don't want to concentrate on the racism part, I'm looking for silent acceptance of Israel's actions, because no other nation stands in such moral standarts as those with which you judge Israel.
by Yosi on Mon Dec 20, 04 12:58pm
[+]
What he wants is for people to associate criticism of Israel with racism, not natural abhorrance of a violent regime.
by cretin_slap on Dec 20, 2004
Oh damn! I forgot this is one area that Cretin and I are of like minds, and here we are, he and I fighting on another ballot!
Oh well, I will eat a little crow. I could not have said it better cretin! I have absolutely no use or care for Israel in any way and I am in NO way an anti-semite.
I just think Israel is horrible to the Palestinian people and I am enraged that the Zionist lobby in the U.S. makes the U.S. pro-Israel, even though most American people SIDE WITH THE PALESTINIANS! Americans, despite what you may have heard, are much more sympathetic to the plight of innocent Palestinians.
(sorry about the capitalization...it's a phase I'm going through :)
Sorry, back on topic. Should we? Probably would be a good idea if every country returned territory claimed in war, but borders have been so screwed up, it would be very hard to do.
Based on the question though, no, we should not. Besides, with the FTAA coming in 2005, then followed up with one currency, etc., it may be a moot point.
Cretin: everytime israel comes up your first instinct is to blame everything on the jews. Everytime one of your little conspiracies comes up, who's to blame? The jews of course.
Face it, you just plain don't like the jews for whatever reason. That would make you an anti-semite. And acknowledging this fact is the first step towards recovery.
Cretin: everytime israel comes up your first instinct is to blame everything on the jews. Everytime one of your little conspiracies comes up, who's to blame? The jews of course.
Quote me, liar.
Anyone who thinks I hate Jewish people might want to read these exchanges. I would also appreciate it if her-blog would stop lying about me.
America fights for ISRAEL. That is all there is to it.
by Guest_14781 on Aug 10, 2004
You don't think that's a totally misleading oversimplification, Guest 14781? Come on, admit it. You can't just blame THE JEWS. It's fucking sad.
by cretin_slap on Aug 10, 2004
Int'l Zionism is the true culprit. Int'l Zionist movement is the true enemy of America and world peace.
by truthseeker999 on Nov 01, 2004
You're sure that the Zionsists, God bless 'em, aren't another scape goat in a long line of scape goats?
by cretin_slap on Nov 01, 2004
Thank you, cretin_slap. They are. We ALL are, in the freaked out pyramid scheme of power.
by ZIG on Nov 01, 2004
Face it, you just plain don't like the jews for whatever reason. That would make you an anti-semite. And acknowledging this fact is the first step towards recovery.
by herzog on Dec 20, 2004
Herzog, I have to respectfully disagree. Cretin and I may be of like mind on this one issue. I don't hate Jewish people in any way. I however, do not trust or like Israel. Israel is a nation and not a religion. Italy is like 98% Catholic, but we don't think of Italy as a Catholic state. If Hindu's lived in Israel and acted in the same manner as the Israel of today, I'd have the same sentiments.
What is happening in the U.S.? Why can't someone be critical of Israel without being labeled an anti-semite and why can't someone in the U.S. be sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, without being called a supporter of Terrorists?
Governments and the people are 2 distinctly different animals, so to dislike the Israelit government and it's policies does not necessarily translate into a form of discrimination.
" If Hindu's lived in Israel and acted in the same manner as the Israel of today, I'd have the same sentiments. "
But that is exactly the point - you don't. How many times have you criticized the Northern Sudanese? Or the Russians in Chechnia? Or the French in the Ivory coast? Or the Americans in Iraq? Or the Northern alliance in Afghanistan? Israel behaves softly in comparison to other countries in other conflicts around the globe, so... why us?
by Yosi on Tue Dec 21, 04 1:38pm
[+]
But that is exactly the point - you don't. How many times have you criticized the Northern Sudanese? Or the Russians in Chechnia? Or the French in the Ivory coast? Or the Americans in Iraq? Or the Northern alliance in Afghanistan? Israel behaves softly in comparison to other countries in other conflicts around the globe, so... why us?
by Yosi on Dec 21, 2004
Something about you and Israel just really hocks me off! LOL..kidding! I do criticize Russia for Chechnia and the U.S. for some of our policies. Why do you pose the question as if I don't? You really don't know what I criticize or don't. :)
Sorry Yosi, I know you want to, but it will take a great deal to change my mind about Israel. Like I've written in the past, I wish Israel only peace and security, but I also very much want that for the Palestinan people...does Israel?
OK, my mistake... I gave you the set of examples for military ethics, instead of the so called land grabs. Why is it that when your country get attacked for its numerous land grabs throughout its history, you run and hide behind the "Sorry, back on topic. Should we? Probably would be a good idea if every country returned territory claimed in war, but borders have been so screwed up, it would be very hard to do. " excuse, but don't accept it when it applies to Israel's situation? And, as you said, there are too many such examples, so it'll be difficult to define right and wrong in a way that will be both nationality wise irrelevant, and will place only Israel (or others you object) in the wrong, while the rest of the enlightened world in the right.
This is not the first time I challenged users to define those guidelines, but most of them avoided it...
by Yosi on Wed Dec 22, 04 2:55am
[+]
tough question... but at the same time, we are not being bombed by the mexican nationals in those states, and we don't shoot mexican kids for throwing rocks at our armoured vehicles....
by BCD on Wed Dec 22, 04 5:54am
[+]
...and at least mexicans still have some fucking land!
Plus your you don't make any point here danny_mack (no offence). "Historical argument"- this land was mine 2000 years ago, so is still mine, isn't used for claimig land since the end of the WWII. Today the ethnic argument it is used. People who live in a certain area have the right to claim it for themselfs. However, in Israel's case the fact is they've stolen that land from the palestinians, wich were left without a country. In those american states you are talking about, americans were colonisede with the consence of the mexican gov. What happened next is history. The mexicans should've thought better when they allowed americans to colonise theyr EMPTY land. So the conclusion is: US citisens colonised an (mostly) empty land owned by the mexicans, incouraged by the mexican gov. and as a result, after becoming majoritary they clamed that land for themselfs. However in Israels case the jews colonised an already ocupied teritory and then kicked those people out (this thing didnt happen to the mexicans living in those states).
Anyone know how the Mexican War started?
An American ship sank in a Mexican harbour. It was probably an accident, but the sinking was blamed on Mexican sabotage, and "bring it on" was soon to be heard on the lips on millions of threatened, patriotic Americans. Hey presto! More Lebensraum.
I don't think the Mexicans are coming here to reclaim their land. They're coming here for a better life.
Actually, here is the historical facts about HOW the war started. It is from a learning web site called the historyguy.com. I have read of now such ship sinkings, so not sure where that "fact" is from:
CAUSES OF CONFLICT:
The war between the United States and Mexico had two basic causes. First, the desire of the U.S. to expand across the North American continent to the Pacific Ocean caused conflict with all of its neighbors; from the British in Canada and Oregon to the Mexicans in the southwest and, of course, with the Native Americans. Ever since President Jefferson's acquisition of the Louisiana Territory in 1803, Americans migrated westward in ever increasing numbers, often into lands not belonging to the United States. By the time President Polk came to office in 1845, an idea called "Manifest Destiny" had taken root among the American people, and the new occupant of the White House was a firm believer in the idea of expansion. The belief that the U.S. basically had a God-given right to occupy and "civilize" the whole continent gained favor as more and more Americans settled the western lands. The fact that most of those areas already had people living upon them was usually ignored, with the attitude that democratic English-speaking America, with its high ideals and Protestant Christian ethics, would do a better job of running things than the Native Americans or Spanish-speaking Catholic Mexicans. Manifest Destiny did not necessarily call for violent expansion. In both 1835 and 1845, the United States offered to purchase California from Mexico, for $5 million and $25 million, respectively. The Mexican government refused the opportunity to sell half of its country to Mexico's most dangerous neighbor.
The second basic cause of the war was the Texas War of Independence and the subsequent annexation of that area to the United States. Not all American westward migration was unwelcome. In the 1820's and 1830's, Mexico, newly independent from Spain, needed settlers in the under-populated northern parts of the country. An invitation was issued for people who would take an oath of allegiance to Mexico and convert to Catholicism, the state religion. Thousands of Americans took up the offer and moved, often with slaves, to the Mexican province of Texas. Soon however, many of the new "Texicans" or "Texians" were unhappy with the way the government in Mexico City tried to run the province. In 1835, Texas revolted, and after several bloody battles, the Mexican President, Santa Anna, was forced to sign the Treaty of Velasco in 1836 . This treaty gave Texas its independence, but many Mexicans refused to accept the legality of this document, as Santa Anna was a prisoner of the Texans at the time. The Republic of Texas and Mexico continued to engage in border fights and many people in the United States openly sympathized with the U.S.-born Texans in this conflict. As a result of the savage frontier fighting, the American public developed a very negative stereotype against the Mexican people and government. Partly due to the continued hostilities with Mexico, Texas decided to join with the United States, and on July 4, 1845, the annexation gained approval from the U.S. Congress.
Mexico of course did not like the idea of its breakaway province becoming an American state, and the undefined and contested border now became a major international issue. Texas, and now the United States, claimed the border at the Rio Grande River. Mexico claimed territory as far north as the Nueces River. Both nations sent troops to enforce the competing claims, and a tense standoff ensued. On April 25, 1846, a clash occurred between Mexican and American troops on soil claimed by both countries. The war had begun.
The War Culture
America was born out of a war it initiated, and it has achieved its growth through periodic warfare ever since. There has been a significant war approximately every thirty years, usually initiated (overtly or covertly) by America, and always achieving a new stage in the growth of American power and the expansion of American-based elite interests.
The national anthem glorifies exploding rockets and the waving of the flag, and warfare is central to the American spirit. A common scenario underlies these wars: there is always an incident which is portrayed as an outrage against America, and the populace then rallies to the common defense with a characteristic ferocity and self-righteousness.
The incidents may be provoked, as with the Mexican War, arranged, as with the Lusitania, or imagined, as in the Gulf of Tonkin—but they are always deftly exploited and enable the elite expansionist agenda to be further advanced, under cover of yet another crusade for freedom and democracy. The elite is always well-prepared for the incident, has a plan ready for execution, and its propaganda machinery goes into full gear as the incident unfolds.
The use of outrage-incidents to launch elite-planned military campaigns accomplishes several objectives. It triggers the in-built American war spirit, and channels the resulting righteous wrath toward the nominated enemy. It also concentrates power in the executive branch, where elite control is usually most undiluted by popular influence. Congress—where popular will is most likely to find expression—is then relegated to the role of loyal stores- supplier for the duration of the campaign.
This process is exemplified by the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which enabled full-scale U.S. military involvement in Vietnam. The incident itself was faked, but Congress promptly issued its usual knee-jerk Resolution, authorizing the President to act in defense. The authorized actions were then incrementally escalated into a full-scale war, with Congress having no further influence, and popular will finding expression only in the streets.
The eventual scope of the war was completely beyond anything authorized by the original Congressional Resolution, but once America is on the warpath, its war-culture ethic does not include room for dissent or reconsideration—it would be betraying the boys at the front.
Hi Cretin,
Can you let me know where you found this. I'd like to read it first-hand as well. Thanks.
And Cretin, could the same be said for the British Empire?? Interesting the similarities. After all, the Sun never set on the British Empire! How did Britain get their empire anyway? Your thoughts??
Well spotted, patch. Yes, the British Empire is very similar to the Roman and American Empires. Our wonderful Empire was acquired by conquest, but we did become quite adept at controlling markets through corruption etc. Lyndon Larouche and his Executive Intelligence Review has written a lot about Venice and the British Empire. A shameful, and appalling thing.
I doubt you will accept the source of the document I took my above post from, but if you read its first paragraph you may recognise some of the world in which we live.
America and the New World Order 1997 by Richard K. Moore 4 February 1997 As published in New Dawn, March-April 1997
Cretin, thanks! I belive in looking at many sources, no matter how much they may clash with my own beliefs. A wise person has taught me that while the contrarian view may cause you stress and anxiety, only be understanding it can you really formulate any basis of truth. Almost any source is good (except maybe a blog or such). Thanks again :)
You might like to think about why these contrarian views come into existence. Maybe it's just to annoy the people who know they are right to accept what they learn from corporate media.
Hope you enjoy that article, patch. I had a quick skim through it, and it seems alright. But don't accept any of it as truth. Researching one particular aspect of it you find interesting might be interesting eg the British Empire and the actions of the East India Company.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
The analogy isn't good.
The Mexican-Americans whose ancestors lived in those areas before the US claimed them are just as American as you are. The ones who came later, came to get the hell away from Mexico and almost to a person are better off than they were before. Why would any of them want to return to the greasy embrace of their third world homeland, with all of its hopeless third world trappings?
The Jews stole (and are still stealing) land right out from under the Palestinians and are committing slow genocide against the Palestinian people. The Palestinians are fighting for their survival
Not an apt comparison.
www.guardian.co.uk
Search for Iraq story. The link is too long and when I try to paste in here, I get a Sorry message.
Also, check out nowarforisrael.com
It is my belief that Israel has duped the Untied States countless times. The power elite around the president are Zionists and I belive that Israel intetnionally mis-lead us. (Bush, being a dolt, bought it).
Israel is evil.
(sorry, know this if off topic)
The spies who pushed for war
Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force
In 1996, he and Richard Perle - now an influential Pentagon figure - served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe.
The Israeli influence was revealed most clearly by a story floated by unnamed senior US officials in the American press, suggesting the reason that no banned weapons had been found in Iraq was that they had been smuggled into Syria. Intelligence sources say that the story came from the office of the Israeli prime minister.
Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian
This is a great article! ISRAEL IS THE CAUSE OF THE WAR IN IRAQ!
Spread the word! I want to rid the U.S. of Israeli interference and lies! I've been afraid to come right out and say it, but Americans need to wake up to this fact! Israel is a threat to us and to the world! Thoughts?
forward.com / issues / 2003 / 03.02.28 / news4.html
take out spaces
Check this out too! (I'm on a roll here LOL)
It's a trifle late for that, don't you think?
It's a trifle late for that, don't you think?
by Applerod on Dec 22, 2004
For what Apple?
cranky, almost every Palestinian wants to live in Israel, or other rich country (Western or Gulf). Does it change anything? Does it make the holding of the WB and Gaza a blessing for the Palestinians? According to you, yes, if the only criterion is the welfare of the population - they were much better under Israeli military government than any other form existed so far.
But if you don't like that comparison, try the Indian one.
Patch, a common antisemite claim was that jews manipulates countries into war, and get rich by it. So now, Israel has become the jew among nations, and legitimate and acceptable target to attack using the exact baseless accusations. If Perle did actually pushed for war against Iraq, how is it connected to Israel? Is it that unrealistic to think that it's within US interests that a mad dictator, possibly with WMD that has already threatened the life line of the American economy - the oil fields in the middle east, will be overthrowned? Why was it acceptable to overthrow Milosevic and not Sadaam?
It is not a game in which whatever conspiracy you can think of is actually correct. And it's interesting how everytime it ends up in Israel's guilt. Now, you can look for Cretin's source and see exactly how people can manipulate facts and make up stuff in order to blame everything on your (or others) country.
by Yosi on Wed Dec 22, 04 3:01pm
[+]
Yosi,
The sources for this are accurate and include the NY Times, The Washington Post and Tim Russert's Face the Nation.
Sorry, but the more Americans become aware of Israel's sneaky dupicitous nature, the shakier Israel's position will become.
Notice how you worked in "anti-semite" there. Typical! Go ahead and feel what you want...being Jewish as NOTHING to do with it.
Israel's time of manipulating the U.S. into doing their dirty work is fast coming to a close.
Yosi, one more thought: have you considered that the reason why the world is mad at us is because of Iraq? And, since I firmly believe (as do many Americans) that Israel lied to us to get us to attack Iraq, it is really Israel at fault and the world's anger should be directed at Israel.
Besides, what do you care what some punk like me thinks? :) That's just it though....you should because there is a growing sentiment in younger people that Israel can never, ever be trusted. When it's out turn to take control of the country...that's when you should worry.
As I said, even if the quoted information is accurate, and Perle did actually wrote such policy paper 8 years ago, what's the connection to Israel? Th fact that it's in Israel's interest that the middle east will be cleared from extremists, doesn't automatically say that Israel had a hand in the intelligence failure, or the decision making in Washington. In fact, it's rather understandable, that it's in the US interest to topple extreme islamic government in the mideast, so when the public opinion was willing, measures towards it were taken. How from that you get to " And, since I firmly believe (as do many Americans) that Israel lied to us to get us to attack Iraq, it is really Israel at fault and the world's anger should be directed at Israel. "
If anybody, your men lied to you, and it just happens so, that this man is jewish. That reminds me of Dreyfus case in France after the 1870 defeat. He was accused of spying and helping the Prussians, and its guilt story was not less credible as Perle's. He was convicted by court, and was sent to prison, but later it was proven that he did nothing wrong. And, of course, he was jewish...
It's like the spying scandal that was revealed several months ago, but in that case, it turned out to be wild exageration, from the start.
The fact that many young Americans think that way, does concern me, but yet, the election results show the opposite, you're still a minority, and if the majority trusts the people that you claim that are controled by Israel, you should respect that.
by Yosi on Thu Dec 23, 04 12:35am
[+]
The fact that many young Americans think that way, does concern me, but yet, the election results show the opposite, you're still a minority, and if the majority trusts the people that you claim that are controled by Israel, you should respect that.
by Yosi on Dec 23, 2004
You're wrong. The election has nothing to do with public attitude toward Israel. What makes you think it does? Just because Bush got elected? Israel did not play a role in the election. For your information, many of the people who voted for Bush are tired of Israel too. I don't see why or how your are trying to make a correlation between the two??
And Yosi, since I am an American, and live in the U.S., I think I know better than you what public sentiment is. As for majority vs. minority, you do know how a Democracy works, right? Just because Bush won, does not mean that a majority of Americans like or want him...it just means that a majority of those who voted, voted for him (you know, sort of like how Gore won the popular vote in 2000, but W. got selected...er, I mean elected)
As for me being in the minority, how the heck would you know?? Last time I checked, there were no polls showing how 14-17 year olds feel. Being in that range, I can promise you this...anti-Israli sentiment is HUGE!! Don't take my word for it. Bush being in office and being such a dolt will just mean that we'll probably see a Democrat in office for at least 8-12 years after Bush (that is sort of how it works here).
Fell as confident as you want that you're safe while W. is in office, but that's not reality.
As for you defending Israel, I do have to say that I totally respect and understand that. When people make certain comments about the U.S., I too defend the U.S., so you're position is totally understandable.
Yosi, please, make no mistake, the U.S. will soon unshakel itself from Israel...pro-Israeli lobby or not!
" You're wrong. The election has nothing to do with public attitude toward Israel. What makes you think it does? Just because Bush got elected? Israel did not play a role in the election. For your information, many of the people who voted for Bush are tired of Israel too. I don't see why or how your are trying to make a correlation between the two?? "
Look at what I said : "the majority trusts the people that you claim that are controled by Israel". So either being controlled by Israel isn't such a big deal for the majority of your population, or that they don't think that the US is controlled by Israel.
" Just because Bush won, does not mean that a majority of Americans like or want him...it just means that a majority of those who voted, voted for him "
That's the indicator, not the way that you feel that people feel about Bush. It sounds as if you don't respect that.
And clinging on the future generation as indicator for true American's sentiments doesn't help...
I do remember polls results on Israeli or Palestinian sympathy, and usually those come out showing that the support of Israel is at least twice as much as for the Palestinians.
" Yosi, please, make no mistake, the U.S. will soon unshakel itself from Israel...pro-Israeli lobby or not! "
When that happens, who will you blame for terrorism directed against America, and for America's new wars?
by Yosi on Fri Dec 24, 04 2:37am
[+]
I do remember polls results on Israeli or Palestinian sympathy, and usually those come out showing that the support of Israel is at least twice as much as for the Palestinians.
by Yosi
See, this is what I mean. Israel CONSTANTLY drags us into stuff. What you wrote is wrong, plain and simple. But you Israeli's will make such statements, and thereby causing more Arab resentment towards us, even thought what you say/write is wholly inaccurate.
There is no need to continue this debate. Polls show that a majority of Americans (of all political affiliation), have more sympathy toward the Palestinian plight and those same polls show a growing resentment toward Israel.
Look, Yosi, it is arrogant for you to tell me, an American, how Americans feel!! What you may see in Israel is of course going to be a poll that may show more support for Israel...but those polls would be the type that are DESIGNED to garner those results (basically, they are skewed).
IF you lived here, you might know more because the best gage is to listen to what people say...and public sentiment is not on Israel's side. Sorry. Please lets stop the back-and-fourth debate on this. I know the reality of it and I believe it is just a matter of time before Israel realizes that their duplicitous actions have only served to alienate the U.S. Sorry!
" Look, Yosi, it is arrogant for you to tell me, an American, how Americans feel "
The arrogance is that you an American (single) tells me what Americans (plural) feel. Especially with the elections results pointing otherwise.
The same polls were taken in european countries as well, but Israel leads prettu much only in the US, so I wouldn't say it's just a manipulation or anything like that. This debate is really unnecessary, but there is an important point for you to understand from it : Don't reflect your own views on what other people, especially those with whom you don't have any contact, think and feel.
by Yosi on Fri Dec 24, 04 10:35am
[+]
The arrogance is that you an American (single) tells me what Americans (plural) feel. Especially with the elections results pointing otherwise.
The same polls were taken in european countries as well, but Israel leads prettu much only in the US, so I wouldn't say it's just a manipulation or anything like that. This debate is really unnecessary, but there is an important point for you to understand from it : Don't reflect your own views on what other people, especially those with whom you don't have any contact, think and feel.
by Yosi on Dec 24, 2004
Whatever. Typical BS as usual. This "conversation" is over.
It's not the same thing. We (the US) actually defeated Mexico, and took the territories ourselves. By ourselves. Not with the muscle of world superpowers. I do see your point though, danny_mack. I think we(the US) should just let the Arabs and Jews have at it. Their issues with each other go back a LOOOOOONG way, and is no business of ours. Let 'em kill each other.
But Israel is an exclusionist quasi aparthied theocracy which uses open racial profiling against arabs. This is a little different that little old California.
NO MEXICANS ARE TOO LAZY TO EVEN LEARN ENGLISH AND BEFORE YOU SAY I AM RACIST I AM A HISPANIC. THEY WOULD JUST WASTE THE LAND AND NOT USE IT FOR ANYTHING
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