COMMENTS:
Religion is, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith", I guess that answer is yes then.
Technically, no; although, as with so many things these days, it seems to be among certain people.
" beliefs held to with ardor and faith " That would qualify it as a religion..
no, religion is a way of dictating to everyone their morals, athiesm does not do that
I know loads of christians who hate gays because the bible says so, the fact that they just mindlessly follow a book like that makes me sad
Makes many of us sad..
Not so much in that atheism, while a belief, is not pursued, nor does it ascribe any values, morals or practices. However it is more like a religion than agnosticism.
Using Bafkoof's definition alone (which conveniently leaves out the more popular definitions involving a spiritual leader), any cause, principle or system could be considered a religion, such as a political party, environmental activity or pursuit for justice.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
It is a faith so ..... Yes.
magdalenasdollar - good point - hadn't read that first
It's not so much an organized religion as it is a belief system based on faith in something which cannot be proven.
its not a belief system at all, its not religion. If that were the case then people that didnt believe in unicorns all have the same religion.
If the people that didnt believe in unicorns got organized and formed a 'church' with doctrine and such, then it would then be a religion. Until then, it's simply a common belief system.
Atheism IMO would be considered a belief system. Heck, there are small country churches where I live that arent as organized and fundamental than some of the atheist groups I've encountered. Not all are like that by all means, but many do get a bit carried away with the anti-god preaching, and the refusal to question their own beliefs.
Good post, magdelenasdollar. In my opinion atheism is clearly not a religion. CuriousCow's point is interesting, but thankfully the more carried away atheists get with their anti-God preaching, the further away from the truth they are getting. We know this because we all have access to this truth because we are it. The closer an atheist's views get to agnosticism the more reasonable they sound.
I feel so lucky that these sorts of questions now no longer trouble me, but God's a master story teller, and I guess he wants to keep some people in suspense for a bit.
cretin_slap - So how is god these days?
Perfect, Tommo, as you'd well know if you bothered to find out for yourself.
Tommo's a Godless monster.
Cretin - that was unnecessary! I was only kiddin
I am bothering to find out. Are you implying that the fact that I havent found him means I'm lazy?
At the moment I'd rather fully find myself - hopefully I'll find god on the way... but I dont think I will.
Cretin - If no one believed in God and there were no religious books - would you have found hm by yourself?
This is an hionest question... dont bite my head off (with your new found inner calm!)
Atheism is a lack of religion. It is to NOT believe in a religion. So no, it's not.
Jigsaw - Nah, its faith that their isn't a god. It doesn't mean lack of religion
Faith is a confident belief in an idea or a person. Athiests are confident in what they believe but are open to only things that make sense.
think we're splitting hairs here
Ha ha. Good one. Sorry Tommo, but I got you all wrong there.
I think I would have because as it was I was raised an atheist, and when things happened that made me seriously question my previously held beliefs I thought it was too good to be true. Thankfully it wasn't too good to be true and I realised with great pleasure that all atheists are wrong. But try telling them that.
Jigsaw is right atheisim is a lack of religion and a lack of faith.
by seon on Tue Feb 01, 05 1:36am
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Seon -
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
I cant work out from this definition if you or I am right. I still read this to mean that an athiest has faith that God does not exist.
Lack of faith as you put it is far to broad. I'm sure athiests have faith in something.
I dont see it saying that an athiest has no religion. it says that there is a disbelief for religion.
Thats just how I interpret it.
Do you have a better definition.... this is the only one I could find.
seon - ignore that actually - I've just read it again and I do see it as lack of religion - LEarn something new every day
cretin_slap - So when you started to think about what your life was all about, what did you do to investigate it?
hehe thats ok and your right atheists can still have faith in things like life after death or ghosts.
by seon on Tue Feb 01, 05 8:51pm
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Hi Tommo.
Lots of meditation, and coming to recognise my inner light (or whatever you want to call it). I eventually had two experiences during which all doubt about the question of God's existence was swept away. I believe that my meditation made these experiences possible, but I believe that if you are a Christian or whatever you can make them possible with prayer (which, I suppose, is similar to meditation in that you are recognising that there is more to existence than simply physical matter moving around) or even acts of devotion.
The universe is an opposition of forces. First you have matter, which takes up space and time. Matter also precludes all other possibilities from happening. There is also mind (if we look at it from a Buddhist point of view) Mind takes up no space or time. Out of this void all possible outcomes of all matter reside, but nothing is acually happening. Your mind is a window into this perfect stillness. It is you. Your body, and your thoughts, and your emotions, and everything about you will pass away, they are transient, but your mind, that everything in your life happens to, will never change, because, as I said before, it is perfect stillness and oceanic bliss. Recognising this absolute fact is achieved by ceasing to associate with the transient, passing things, and associating with that which is constant, perfect, and expansive (your mind). That's where you get all those metaphors from about being a rock in the middle of a stream etc.
At the end of the day it is all down to you, and whether you even want to find out about any of this. I certainly don't think that not believing in God will get you eternal damnation or anything as ridiculous as that. But I don't want anyone going through their whole lives believing that their whole existence will somehow disappear and cease to exist when I know that this is simply not the case. You can have faith, either that God is or is not there, or you can find out for definite by using that part of your mind that does nothing, but is always there. Fucking Hell i'm boring.
cretin - Not at all
- I am aware of there being more to this world around me than I can fathom....
I do have a sense that outside our physical world there is an overwhelming spiritual/energy. I do not however connect this to a god.
I wrote alot more but deleted it as it wasn't too concise. This always being the problem when trying to explain something words cannot explain
If Atheism is a religion then what is the term for non-religious people?
Non-religious people.
Atheists have a specific belief regarding theism. Non-religious people do not regard it as important enough for deliberation, or perhaps not even that much! I personally consider atheism to be a religious stance. To be non-religious is to have no stance at all
Syneil
So is a non-religious person in your opinion a person that doesn't believe in gods?
not exactly.. that might be the case, but one who is non-religious either isn't interested enough to consider whether there is a god or not, or chooses not to.
I feel agnostics can be non-religious, but atheism is definitively a religious position
Why is it that if I don't beleive in ghosts I can be labled a non-ghost believer but if I don't believe in gods I'm religous?
Syneil heres the Dictionary’s definition of atheism:
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
so your wrong it isnt a religion but I guess it can be a doctrine since atheists dont have God in there belief system.
by seon on Thu Feb 03, 05 9:24pm
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no, I didn't say atheism is a religion; I said it's a religious stance, and later a religious position which is basically the same thing (I intended it to be as such anyway)
To be "religious" is to uphold a religion. As I have not described Atheism as a religion, I am not describing Atheists as "religious".
paragraphs to seon and ClosetIguana respectively
Just thought I should point out that atheism is clearly NOT a lack of religion. Buddhism is a religion and does not promote any deity worship at all. One can be an atheist and have religion
So if you were to answer this ballot is Atheism a religion, you would say yes or no?
firstly it's MY ballot lol, and my answer would be the second option I gave: Religious stance only
correction: my answer was and is, religious stance only
...but it's not a religion right?
I still say Atheists are people who believe God doesn’t exist but your right atheists can be religious like if there Buddhists (though some Buddhists would consider Buddhism a philosophy not a religion)
by seon on Sat Feb 05, 05 1:25am
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.....but it's not a religion right?
ClosetIguana, if you're asking me still then No I don't think Atheism is a religion.
seon, yes I considered that Buddhism may just be considered a philosophy, but, and I know I have a tendency to do this, but 'The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition' has "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" as one of it's definitions. And I think that sums most religion up I think
Syneil
Thanks for answering this ballot.
Yeah other people would say Buddhism is a religion so I guess atheists can be religious but atheisim is defiantly not a religion. A doctrine maybe but defiantly not a religion.
by seon on Sun Feb 06, 05 6:26pm
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seon
Are you sure your Atheist Buddist friend is really an Atheist? From what I understand about Buddism there are hundreds if not thousands of gods...so...are you following me? How can he call himself an Atheist if he believes in gods?
I dont have a "Atheist Buddist" friend the Buddhisim example was brought up by Syneil. I always thought Buddhists didnt believe in God well i heard something about it but I was just saying it is possible for a atheist to be religious as long as the religion doesnt say God exsists.
by seon on Tue Feb 08, 05 12:38am
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Buddhism doesn't have any gods, Closet. And some Buddhists believe in God, seon.
I wouldn't let this question keep you up at night, boys.
japanese gods aren't buddhist gods. And the "gods" you're refering to in buddhism is a bad translation of the entities it speaks of. Buddhism does not involve god(s) at all
Syneil
Look up that list and it'll list some of the Buddist gods.
For example Nikko-Bosatsu Buddhist god of sunshine and good health.
Seon sorry for confusing you with Syneil.
Syneil
Are the Buddist gods similar to the Christian god?...I have no idea. As an Atheist I group them all together as imaginary entities.
Syneil is right plus there’s different branches of Buddhism and ClosetIguana that’s ok I can see how someone would get us confused.
by seon on Tue Feb 08, 05 9:12pm
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seon
So an Atheist not willing to believe in gods but entities are fine?
So an Atheist (is not willing to believe in gods but entities are fine?
Atheism only refers to a person's stance regarding "theism", that is, the belief in God(s). regarding other supposedly mythological entities it states nothing.
Syneil
When you say "it" what are you referring to?
^forget that last question. I thought you read some "Atheist doctine" but I assume you were looking up some dictionary difinition(I assume). Anyway...
An atheist accepts only the material and physical world, which would exclude Buddist Entities or Gods or whatever difintion pleases you. I hope I've laid rest to the Atheist Buddist myth.
*definition
That is very commonly the case, but is not part of the definition of atheism. Atheists may still believe in the mind being non-physical substance for example
1.I guess that depends on what defintion you're reading. If your defintion doesn't include what you agree is "very commonly the case" then its not much of a definition. I found one that states: An atheist accepts only the material and physical world or what can be proven by reason.But it also includes: Denial of the existence of God. I don't like that term "denial", I prefer does not believe.
I found a thesaurus used the term pessimists to describe us! Seon (above^)found a definition stating "wickedness". You know, if we were a religion there would be no way they could get away with that!
"Atheists may still believe in the mind being non-physical substance "
2 Just because it's not a substance doesn't mean that it's not part of our physical world. Your example, the mind or thought is not a physical substance but we know it exists in our physical world.
3. If an Atheist believes in gods, entities or whatever you want to call them then they aren't Atheists.
1. it is very commonly the case that cats have tails. Does that mean that a cat without a tail does not match the definition of a cat? Granted there are a whole host of definitions for any word, but atheism and materialism are not the same thing, which is what you seem to be suggesting. Atheism is the antonym of theism, which is not "belief in mythological or other-worldly beings" but "belief in God or gods". Atheism and theism refer purely to ones disbelief and belief (respectively) in God or gods. An atheist might believe in all sorts of things that don't exist, but doing so doesn't contradict their atheism.
2. "substance" in philosophy doesn't mean matter. it means whatever it is that comprises a certain category of being. Physical substance is definitively different to Mental substance. To believe that the mind is made of non-physical substance is to say it exists outside of the physical realm. I apologise for my ambiguity :)
3. Nope, one cannot be an atheist who believes in God or gods. Oxymoronic. any other entity or being or substance is not refered to.
Basically just repeating what I've already said, but you haven't given me any reason to change my definition yet
So the definition that I submitted doesn't count?
definitions are subjective, as I mentioned before. I feel that suggesting an atheist is definitively a materialist is going too far; beyond the implications of it's etymology (from Gk. atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god"). Therefore, I choose not to accept that as part of MY definition of atheism.
However, language and meaning evolves like anything else. You obviously feel that "atheism" has evolved to mean someone who is materialistic, doesn't believe in unicorns or brontosaurus' or buddhist spirits etc.
Fair enough :)
Syneil
Good point. I think the problem is that since Atheism isn't a religion it doesn't have a clear doctrine of what it means to be an Atheist.
It would be interesting to go to an Atheists message-board and see if any believe in unicorns and buddhist spirits. (I'm sure all would believe in brontosaurus/apatosaurus')
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