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COMMENTS:
Nutjob is used to refer to extremists. I think that is what he meant.
Larry, I use nutjobs as a substitute for a radical or extremists. All three of those users can't accept any other word than the Bible and if anyone opposes their beleifs on politics & religion they resort to name calling. That's enough proof for me to call them radicals.
Well Larry, I'm glad you believe that but unfortunately there are people who would like to see a purely Christian America. They may not always show it but if they had a button that could convert everyone to Christianity instataneously I can bet you they'd press it.
If they did, they'd be up shi*s creek. So many of the "ultra conservative fundamental christians" do not really understand or adhere to true Christian values. They selectively chose from the Bible what they want and they present half truths. To people unfamiliar with Christianity, they believe what people like Pat Robertson and Ralp Reed tell them. By doing this, they are in effect committing a serious sin, because they intentionally change the word of God--they do so to serve their own sick greed for money and power. For every message of intollerance and hate that they promote by twisting the true meaning of Chirstianity, there are probably 5 lessons of love, tolerance, compassion and generosity that counter thier claims. It really concerns me that so many of the hard-liners on here really don't understand that Christ is the center of our faith and that by always contradicting his teachings, they in effect are denying Christ. If Christ told us to love all and if he himself forgave a Prostitute and welcomed her, than why do these nuts think that God would hate a gay person or a non-Christian? He doesn't. (geez, I really do write long posts :)
God likes long posts when they sound like that.
.God DOESN'T like how fundies act though, they're so hypocritical it's scary they still think God's on their side.
by Jyl on Sat Apr 23, 05 9:34am
[+]
In my opinion, saying the hate or dislike the behavior is really code for saying they hate gay people. Its more politically correct for people to say they hate the behavior.
I didn't say anything about your other examples. You must live in a different world than I do as most people I know who say they hate the sin, not the sinner are really bigots. If you ask the people who say that enough questions you will find fear, ingorance and hate (shown by a desire to not give gays any civil rights, etc.) cloaked in justifications they find in the bible. Many will conveniently forget the example of Jesus who hung out with the lowest of the low, harlots, diseased, etc., and didn't judge any of them.
It seems to me that you still think I am attacking you. I am attacking the religious conservatives and nuts. After all it was the religious conservatives who have pushed for banning gay marriage and other restrictive laws. That is a fact. Most christians I know in my state were for the gay marriage ban amendment. They were all to eager to embrace it and not to listen to people who said it would eliminate civil unions and possibly impact senior citizens and domestic violence laws. Desire to legislate against gays outweighed logic. Such is the power of hate. While there were a few churches and groups who opposed it, they were few and far between.
That's the point Larry and I didn't say Chris condoned prostitution. What he said to the crowd who was going to stoner her to death "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Since everyone of us has sinned and does sin, that pretty much excludes everyone. And there are Christians who hate gays. You may not know them personally, but there are those that do. That being said, there are Muslims who hate gays and Jews who hate gays and probably Hindu's who hate gays. That was just an example.
That's the point Larry and I didn't say Christ condoned prostitution. What he said to the crowd who was going to stoner her to death "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Since everyone of us has sinned and does sin, that pretty much excludes everyone. And there are Christians who hate gays. You may not know them personally, but there are those that do. That being said, there are Muslims who hate gays and Jews who hate gays and probably Hindu's who hate gays. That was just an example.
I had such a good point, I had to post it twice! :) Larry, you make excellent points...really solid and I know what you're saying. I think the issue is that some of these fundies are so full of sin and hate themselves, that for them to dictate to others how they should live, etc., is almost so blasphemous, the stench reaches to Heaven. That may be the point that Fiddle is making and if so, then he and I agree. It's basically these pious people who act holier than thou that are running around lying, cheating, committing adultry, being greedy...but yet are quick to judge others. That TYPE of Christian is bad and that TYPE of Christian violates the very fundamentals of the teachings of Christ.
I completely disagree with you larry. There are lots of things the bible says are wrong but no one pays any attention to them. However, if it is something that appears to justify your prejudices and fears, people latch on to it. Most religious people say the hate the sin in regards to gays and not the sin. It is a lie. What about the pope who says homosexuality is intrinsically evil? If something is evil, then what will people rationalize doing? It is a short trip down that road. If something is evil, what should you do about it? You can't say he is just a religious nutjob. Nothing is worse than using religion to justify hate and violence against people. You see, larry, I don't despise christianity, it's just much of Christ's fan club that I have the problem with.
I completely disagree with you larry. There are lots of things the bible says are wrong but no one pays any attention to them. However, if it is something that appears to justify your prejudices and fears, people latch on to it. by FiddleFaddleonLSD
Fids, I think this is a really great point. The only thing I would ask is that you remain open to the idea that this is really a minority of Christians. In all honesty, it's the "high profile" ones that are like this. I guess what I mean is that Fundies/Televangelists, etc. are not really representative of Christianity. The problem is that they tend to get press, so it appears that this is how a majority of Christians are. Bush for example falls into the category of end-time Christians--basically, a group of Christians that are obsessed with the end times and instead of celbrating thier faith and the idea of hope and peace, they're focused on some final battle. This totally affects their thinking. It's way too complicated to talk about in these tiny little boxes :) But suffices to say, Christian haters are as bad as the same Muslim extremists they hate. Both segments are not really the majority, but are in fact, a very small group that has managed to grab the spotlight.
ps when I write Christian haters, I don't mean people who hate Christians, but mean Christians who ARE haters. :)
They're Christians Larry, but not good ones or at least not ones who follow true Christian teachings. None of us are pefect and we all sin and make mistakes, but "haters" as they are called are cruel and judgmental. I think you and I are saying the same thing. :)
why am I not surprised you disagree with me fiddle?
That is the Holy Grail to all Conservatives.
Conservatives have no use for Democracy.
religion is not a democracy, if people think that, they will always be disappointed
No, despite the left's rhetoric the Republicans don't want a theocracy.
I think that most Republicans believe in the rule of law. There are exceptions to every rule.
Republicans believe in the freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
The US is a republic not a democracy.
my post was not related to your comment grapost, coincidence I happen to write it under yours
Pene, the US is a Democratic Republic.
Liberal, Representative Republic, not democratic republic is the reality.
Do you know that official name of the US?
The Rebulic of the United States of America.
UN Charter.
The Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, The Constitution, and especially the Federalist Papers all make clear that the form of government should be republican where they make any mention of it.
There are clear warnings against democracy for good reasons.
Now, before you blow your lid, I agree that America is progressively moving towards complete democracy. Slaves being declared fully human, men without land getting the vote, women geeting the vote, the Senate having direct elections, etc all indicate this.
However it would be premature to say that this is a democracy. And then if we do decide to move to a complete democracy we should, as citizens, all have the opportunity to express our beliefs and thoughts about such a move.
I vote no on democracy because of logistics. I think a Representative Republic is working really well, and I don't want illiterates having to vote on every singe bill before it passes.
Hopefully, we can agree at least on that last point.
Yes, that's all very nice but I was saying that the US is a Republic that's based on Democracy.
alright man whatever you say
Pene,
No offense, but your not really being accurate. Here is a definition of Democracy:
"For some guidance on this important issue, we turned to Robert Dahl, Professor of Political Science Emeritus at Yale University and author of five books on democracy.
In general terms, a democracy is a form of government in which the people have the right to control their own destiny. In a democracy the people have the final authority, they have the right to make or at least influence decisions that affect their everyday lives. The term itself comes from the Greek words demos, meaning "people," and kratos, meaning "authority."
The U.S. trade union movement was founded upon the principles of democracy. The AFL-CIO Ethical Practices Code states: Freedom and democracy are the essential attributes of our movement. Labor organizations lacking these attributes ... are unions in name only. Authoritarian control ... is contrary to the spirit, the traditions and the principles which should always guide and govern our movement.
Democracy is about the people and their power. The power or authority exercised in a democracy is derived, directly or indirectly, from the people in one of two forms:
Direct democracy: This is where everyone is given the opportunity to participate in making all policy decisions. In countries and large organizations, direct democracy is rarely utilized.
Representative democracy: This approach entails people voting to elect representatives in a free and fair electoral system to make policy for them under a wide range of checks and balances to help ensure leadership acountability."
This Pene, is why we have "government for the people, by the people. Our government structure is a Republic, like many nations today. Our style of governance is a democracy.
The differences Pene, are slight. A Republic, or a representative republic, is one in which the people vote to elect their fellow citizens to represent them and to uphold their views (in the 3 main branches of Executive, Legislative and Judicial). A true democracy is the same principle, except that for all major issues, the people have a right to vote on them. We have always had this right in the sense that polls are taken to gage general public consensus on an issue, as well as that a member of Congress and/or the Senate is by law, required to listen to the people from thier respective districts/states. Republicans tend to favor a true reprentative form of Democracy, where as Democrats tend to favor voting according to majority interests. However, neither party really adheres to the full definition of either principle. So, in effect, the US is a Democracy in that we have the freedom to vote on issues (that often appear on local, state and federal ballots, such as tax issues, and on the local level, propositions to build a new gym at the local high school).
As for the issues you point out that indicate that we are "moving toward being a true democracy," they are misleading. If a Senator, for example, failed to vote to give women the vote, yet the citizens of that state wanted their senator to do so, the people have a right to "recall" the senator and in effect, take them out of office, or, they have the right to NOT vote them back in at the next election.
Reprinting and copying others ideas makes you a good gopher, not a great intellect.
What I said is not "little incorrect" it is perfectly correct.
It is an important distinction to prevent the lame-o lefties from distorting the truth and trying to take over the country. Like for instance when FDR the dictator tried to pack the Supreme Court so that they would rubber stamp his coalition with Stalin and the commies.
I didn't copy anything Pene, but you did. I did a search on askjeeves, and YOU posted your post virtually word-for-word on one of the results I found :) Guess YOU are the little cheat lol! My ideas are original because I paid attention is school. I realize that you only have an 8th grade level education, but hey, you're doing pretty good for yourself big fella!
You know, you are a blithering idiot.
What I wrote I wrote. It doesn't have any hint of plagarism. There aren't even three words that are in the same order, nor are there any ideas unique to either my post or the one you stole.
Once again all you have done is demonstrated your ability to function like a parrot.
It is a stupid charge and demonstrates your inability to think. Now please piss off.
And, Pene's quote on the trade union issue was taken from the link below, and here is thq quote. Now Note: Pene wrote this to me "Reprinting and copying others ideas makes you a good gopher, not a great intellect." Now Pene, didn't you copy and paste? Hypocrit!
The U.S. trade union movement was founded upon the principles of democracy. The AFL-CIO Ethical Practices Code states: Freedom and democracy are the essential attributes of our movement. Labor organizations lacking these attributes ... are unions in name only. Authoritarian control ... is contrary to the spirit, the traditions and the principles which should always guide and govern our movement.
reapinc.org / Defdem.html
No Pene, perhaps you should piss off :) It does not matter that they're not in the same order, but it proves that you took the information from the web search and presented it as your own ideas. I don't need to compete with you on an intelectual basis, for the simple reason that it is no contest. Your limited capacity to think for yourself and your drive to lash out at others who have differing views, clearly support my belief that you are wholly unqualified to debate. I prefer to take on an equal, and in your case, I would be taking advantage of you.
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