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COMMENTS:
You're right
by mojo on Sun Jul 17, 05 12:25pm
[+]
Darned if I know. I know that, when I was a practicing Catholic, I wasn't welcome in a couple of my uncles' houses. Just another bizzarity of life.
That is because Catholicism/Orthodox and to some extent Anglican are closest to original Christianity, not the rest of them. At least they are generally more true to original Christianity than most of the flake groups like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's flocks preaching things that aren't biblically based like the rapture and Christian prosperity. I'm not either, but I am sure I will get negative karma for this remark.
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all closely related. Though not as much as catholicism and protestantism.
What are you taling about?? Of course they are! I don't know why you think that, but Catholicism IS part of Christianity. Under Christianity fall all denominations that believe that Christ is the Son of God. Are you aware that the Episcopol Church is much like the Catholic Church, but the Episcopol church falls under the umbrella denomination of Protestanism? I've heard people say that the Catholic Church is different fron Christianity and I just can't believe people would be so unaware. Haven't you ever heard the Pope talk about "Christiandom and the role that the Catholic plays?"
Read his book and you will see that indeed the Catholic Church IS VERY MUCH PART OF CHRISTIANITY!!
Sorry, but Catholicism IS a DENOMINATION of the greater CHRISTIAN church. There is no difference other than in the dogma and in the rituals. Sorry if I seem rude, but you are mistaken.
Episcopal is the name for Anglican in the US.
Catholics do not consider themselves a denomination, they consider themselves the true, unbroken line of the church founded by St Peter. It is not that they think that non-catholics will not go to heaven, it is just their belief that they are the true representative (NOT a denomination) of the church that Peter founded and that the others are not. I doubt you will find many Catholic priests who will say that Catholicism is a denomination.
Hey, it's not my belief. Don't shoot the messenger.
Also, several protestant denominations consider the Catholic church to be a false church.
I don't understand why people think that but it happens in every religion.
Once again, don't shoot the messenger.
*LOL* you want me to read a catholic book so I can believe that catholic and christianity are the same thing?
Okay, let me give you a little history lesson about my upbringing. I was baptised cathlic, I was raised catholic, I was confirmed catholic, I accepted Christ as my savior first as a catholic (at the time not understanding any of it), I went to catholic school from kindergarten thru the 6th grade, before my parents put me into a public school and we changed our religious affiliation to a protestant religion.
Catholics believe that good deeds are essential to get you into heaven, more so than accepting Christ into your heart. The good deeds bit is nice, but Christians do not feel this is the essential aspect of getting into heaven as Catholics do.
A true Christian cannot believe in a place called Purgatory because as a Christian you believe that Christ forgives you for your sins, on the spot, so with that forgiveness, why would you need a 'waiting room' between heaven and hell???
Catholics believe in 'divine intervention', praying to Mary (hail marys) as an important part of forgiveness. Commandment number one, thou shalt hold no God's before the Lord thy God. WHy then are you praying to mary??? "Divine" means Godly, "intervention" means 'to get between', so doesn't that go against the very principle of the first commandment?? Most Christians find the use of prayers to saints and mary, the use of confessionals to tell your sins to a priest, and the ritualisism within the catholic church to be really distasteful.
Also, about confession, did you know that confessions to priests started in the middle ages, as a way for the Catholic Church to keep power over the royals in Europe? By knowing the dirty secrets of the kings and queens, the church was able to keep them in check, and further along the importance of the catholic church as an entity with power above the monarchy itself.
There are a very large number of Christians that are REALLY insulted when they are lumped in with Roman Catholics, myself included.
I'm just trying to point out the ridiculousness of it all.
Catholicism is a subset of Christianity, but it is not equivalent.
However, it is hyperbole and hubris to suggest Judaism and Islam are more closely related than Catholic and non-Catholic factions.
And, a large number of Catholics feel the same way about protestants.
I don't really have a belief either way Jappy. I'm not either one. Why they are so driven to prove which way is right is beyond my comprehension.
I am not attempting to prove right or wrong, just the differences.
Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. Like Baptists are Protestants, but not all Protestants are Baptists.
Not all Catholics are Christians either. To be a Christian, by it's very definition, you must accept Christ into your heart as your personal savior.
There are Catholics who believe that the good deeds get you into heaven. They do not believe that you have to accept Christ as your savior. They believe he is the son of God yes, but they haven't taken that last step.
There are 7 main religions in the world. Here is the list. Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Christianity, and Islam.
Do a web search on this. Clearly, you can see that Catholocism is PART of the Christian faith. Catholocism IS PART OF CHRISTIANITY!
This is ridiculous. Learn you faith!! It is the same with Judaism!! In the Jewish faith there are Orthodox Jews, there are Hasidic Jews, Reformed, etc. They are all JEWISH and ALL part of Judaism. I can't believe you call yourself a Catholic and have no idea that the Christian faith is the key!! It is the acceptance of Chris as the SON of God! That is what makes you a Christian! It does not matter if you have different rites and rituals, you are still a Christian. You really, really should know this.
I am no longer Catholic, pay more attention. Again, recognizing Christ as the son of God is not 'accepting christ as your personal Lord and Savior' which is the definition of Christianity. Just because you are Catholic, that does NOT make you Christian. And yes, there are many around the world who erroneously lump Catholicism in under the heading of Christianity but that is not correct.
The choice is between the Bible and the Roman magisterium; the choice is between salvation by grace through faith in Christ (Christianity), or while still recognizing Christ as the son of God, although not recognizing salvation by his grace, but that salvation is achieved through human merit and effort in the Roman religion(Catholics).
Catholicism single handedly brought about the Renaissance and saved Western Civilization. Christianity produced George Bush
Sorry, but you obviously have your own ideas, so stick to them if you want. You're wrong, but that is your right. If you don't see that Christianity IS the religion/faith and that Catholocism, whether Roman or Byzantine is just the method of worship and unique unto itself only because of its dogma, practice and methodology, then fine. Catholocism, by decree of Jappy, is now, after over 2,000 years, a religion of if its own.
You may want to call the Pope and inform him of this Jappy, as I feel bad that the old dolt is laboring under the misguided idea that his church is part of Christiandom.
Silly old guy needs to realize he is taking direction from you now. All hail Jappy! Supreme leader of the 8th great religion "CATHOLOCISM!"
You might want to enlarge your definition of Christianity. I don't think the majority of Christians, theologians, or Catholics concur with it.
But I think I understand where you're coming from. Your personal experience leads you to some conclusions that are logical for you. But there might be other points of view and other interpretations that are as logical and valid for other people. I think the experience of faith and religion is highly personal. And tolerance and compassion should allow us to include other experiences and not exclude them.
Jappy, your statement is your opinion only. It seems to me that you want to say that the Catholic Church is not Christian in nature. This is a relatively new concept in protestantism or the many non-denominational "Christian" groups. Also, the concept of "being saved" is a relatively new one. This process is often made in an emotional circumstance such as during of after an emotional sermon. The Catholic church teaches that conversion or a turning to Christianity or Catholicism if you wish is generally a longer process.
It is as follows: The first step, in the normal process of conversion is the investigation and examination of the credentials of the Church, which often is a painful labor lasting for years. The external grace which draws a man's attention to the Church and causes him to begin his inquiry is as various and manifold as there are individual inquirers. The next step, which is the "good will to believe". The third and final act, the act of faith itself: The believer comes to believe what the Church teaches because God has revealed it.
The order followed in a Catholic church is this: # first, abjuration of heresy or profession of faith;
# second, conditional baptism;
# third, sacramental confession and conditional absolution.
A bit different and drawn out that being "saved".
It is intended to be a decision not made in the passion of the moment but rather one of reflection and a investigation.
While not Catholic, I think this approach is far better than just "being saved".
Sorry for so long a post. The info on Catholic conversion was taken from Newadvent.org a Catholic web site.
patch, WHY do you keep bringing up what the Pope says, the pope is merely a man, I'm merely a man, I am not catholic, so therefore, I do not subscribe to what the pope says. So by using him as a reference to what is or is not christianity would be much like using michael jackson to tell me what is or is not child molesting, I'm not going to believe either one due to the source.
Also, because you insist upon continually bringing up the pope, let me point out, Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (your Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican (again, YOUR pope).
As expected, since the foundations are different, so also are the edifices built upon them. Christianity stands on the Gospel of God's sovereign grace. In love, God predestines His chosen ones to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, their sole mediator. The Son became man and gave His life as a ransom to secure their freedom from sin. Being dead in sin, they are completely unable to convert ourselves or merit God's favour. Therefore God graciously grants His people repentance and faith to turn to Him and trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. Believers are accepted in Christ, solely on the merit of His righteousness and blood, and not because of any goodness or human merit. God also resides in His people by the Holy Spirit, enabling them to obey and glorify the Father, and to guarantee their inheritance in heaven forever.
Now, one thing, when I say Catholics are different from Christians, I'm saying Roman Catholics. The Roman church falsely appropriates the term "catholic" exclusively to itself. It is the epitome of pride for the local assembly of Rome to limit the universal church of Jesus Christ to those churches in submission to herself. Moreover, as you say, a church is "catholic" - a member of the universal church of Jesus Christ - if it is faithful to His Word. Then I will agree with you that, yes, Catholics are Christians. However, add Roman in there, and I do not agree.
Ah yes, Jappy. Your view is very similar to that of right-wing "Christians". Your interpretation is incorrect, but you are free to believe what you want, but this really isn't a ballot. It should be an article on LO about your views on the subject.
Ah yes, how typical, bring up the "right wing conspiracy" when faced with a well presented opinion on this. Don't be an asshole, Fiddle. Every ballot on this site in one way or another has a basis in opinion, and anyone can vote any way they want to within this poll, and post any comment they want to, you don't need to start spewing out little bits of venom just because you don't have a leg to stand on in your argument.
Sorry, I'm not reallyl familiar with Christianity at all. Wasn't brought up one, so I don't know much about Catholisim or Christianity in general. They seem the same to me, just small differences.
by aya on Sun Jul 17, 05 5:49pm
[+]
Conspiracy? I never said that. I think both views are stupid, not just one. Did I not say that? If I didn't then I just did now. This isn't about my faith or beliefs. I'm just questioning yours and why you have them.
Venom? Interesting. I never thought what I said was venom. You have an obviously strong opinion on it. That is fine. I just don't think that it is fair to seperate catholicism from christianity, nor do I agree with it. I'm not sure how saying you have your right to your beliefs is "venom". I respect your views, I just don't agree with them, nor do several others.
If you think others not agreeing with you meaning that they don't have a leg to stand on, then that means to me that you don't respect their right to disagree.
Your right to your view is fine. But when you bring it up in a ballot, people will scrutinize it.
Jappy, I'm sorry, I should have made this clear. I am not Catholic or Protestant for that matter. I am a Christian. Plain and simple.
Jappy makes a good point. Most Protestant Christians see Catholics as idol-worshiping pagans and are insulted to be put in the same category with them.
Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. I think people sound foolish when they describe themselves as Christian but are implying that they're Protestant. Christianity includes the whole nutty bunch.
"the whole nutty bunch"
that's a truly dumb statement, you may be athiest, or agnostic, or whatever, but with such a high percentage of the western world subscribing to Catholic or Protestant religions, I would be hard pressed to see where you describe them ALL as nutty.
The Catholic Church was the first Church built and Catholics believe in Jesus and salvation, Christians left the Catholic Church but they still believe in the Bible and Jesus. They may have some differences but there both part of Christianity because they both believe in Jesus Christ there just different churches.
by seon on Thu Aug 18, 05 8:00pm
[+]
Christians should unite. Christians should stand up for each other no matter what denomination.
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