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IS AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EVER JUSTIFIABLE?

ethics :
[+] serious ballot by wideheadofknowledge

Is it acceptable?

Or is it racist against the ethnic majority?

Yes - it's justifiable.
No - it's not justifiable
Sometimes it's justified
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Ballot #93851 :
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COMMENTS:
I think AA is okay to break a tie between two equally qualified candidates when one comes from a poor background and the other does not.
it wrong. do you want to go to the doctor and yor doctor was there because of AA not because that was the best doctor.
No, racism is never acceptable.
As long as there is racial discrimination it will be justified.
Whenever it can be demonstrated that a group of people have been consistently discriminated against based upon their skin color, sex, religion, etc., affirmative action may be justified.

It would, for example, be hard to competently argue that affirmative action was not needed to correct racial discrimination against Blacks.

The question we face now is at what point we discontinue an affirmative action program which has been successful and is now not needed?

What thc, Grapost, and griffon have already stated so well.
It is absolutely discriminatory towards the ethnic majority.

Just beacuse they may or may not be better off, that is not our problem, but theirs and theirs alone.

OK. Bit of historical context.

Two people go for a job. Both are equally qualified and competant. One of the applicants is from an ethnic minority and for that reason alone she does not get the job.

Affrimative action does not mean under qualified people get a job over someone more qualified. That's what the neo-cons want you to think.

It's there to redress over 300 years of ill-treatment for no other reason than the color of someone's skin.

Sure it's ok if you believe in legislative racism.
"It's there to redress over 300 years of ill-treatment for no other reason than the color of someone's skin. "

Widehead - what you speak of is in the past, no i ask you why is it that we the majority must now suffer for something that happened in the past.

If you believe in affirmative action so strongly then i suggest you give up your job to a minority person , after all they are suffereing according to you.

'
It's there to redress over 300 years of ill-treatment for no other reason than the color of someone's skin.'

And the people getting screwed out of a job because of their skin color, did they have anything to do with slavery?

And would you widehead, I assume you're white, give your job to an equally qualified minority applicant?

babcia
AA isn't always against the majority group. In Malaysia, it is used to prevent the Chinese minority from dominating the country even more than they already do.

Just to clarify. I don't believe it's right for government to force AA on us, but it's good for private institutions to use as a tie breaker.

"what you speak of is in the past"

Legal segregation in the US is more recent than World War 2. It's not that far in the past and racist attitudes persist today. Ignoring the past is fatal - we must learn from our mistakes.


"i ask you why is it that we the majority must now suffer for something that happened in the past."


And the majority is suffering how exactly? Racist, inflammatory nonsense.

"And would you widehead, I assume you're white, give your job to an equally qualified minority applicant?"

Er, that's not how it works is it, herzog? If I was up for a job and was beaten to it by someone from an ethnic minority I would treat it no differently than if that person had been white.

See, I don't bitch, whine and cry racism at a perceived notion of reverse racism any time a black person gets a job.

Getting ahead in life has forever been sujected to many factors that are outside our control - family, connections, what school you went to, whether you are white....
It is not acceptable to wave away 300 years of racism as if it never happened and its not acceptable to cry racism because it is now recognised that ethnic minorities have been unfairly treated.


Widehead: as there are a finite number of jobs available, giving a job to one person means you are not giving it to another, correct?

So if you give it to one person based on their race (maybe not entirely, but as a deciding factor) that means you are not giving it to another person based on that individuals race, does it not?

Affirmative action is not about selecting ethnic minorities over the majority!

It is about making sure that race is not an issue in the selection process.

President Lyndon Johnson coined the phrase in 1965. Executive Order 11246 states that federal contractors should "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin."

Two years later he added gender too in order to combat discrimination against women in the work place.

The cry of reverse racism is unfounded - less than 2% of employment discrimination cases are attributed to reverse racism.

You have been led to believe that the ethnic majority are being short-changed, they are not. It is simply that they don't like being less qualified than someone from an ethnic minority. Racism in action!

^ One Job, two applicants. One black one white. Affirmative action requires the employer to employ the Black applicant simply because of the colour of his skin, = racist. How much simpler can it be Widehead?

The white applicant is a victim of racism, racism apparently justified because of the actions of past members of his race, whom he has no connection with. Its racism towards that individual, however you care to dress it up.

Affirmative action demands no such thing lil_ape. Either you know this and are deliberately obfuscating or you are ignorant of the reality.

Affirmative action ensures that race is not an issue when it comes to selecting someone for a job/university placement/whatever.

It removes racism not creates it.

No, incorrect. Affirmative action inevitably creates a bottleneck in employment demand. The employer can only employ a certain amount of adequately skilled workers, if he/she wishes to remain productive and efficient. Now, affirmative action quotas tell this employer that he/she MUST have employed a certain amount of minority workers by a certain date. The scene is set.

Onto the previous example, the employer is presented with two equally employed candidates for the Job, one white and one black. The employer is effectively FORCED to employ the black candidate, or face criticism/ penalties.

The effect on the white individual who didnt receive the Job SI PLY BECAUSE OF THE COLOUR OF HIS SKIN, is that of racism, pure and simple.

Its as simple as that.

In reality we are discussing an unrealistic situation - no two candidates are going to be truly equal.
In the past race and gender have proved to be factors that overrode the ability of the applicants (inferior guy applicant gets job over superior female applicant or attractive, flirty blonde girl gets job over mousy, shy brunette etc etc)

By not taking race (or whatever) into account it just so happens that more ethnic minority applicants are successful in gaining jobs.

You cry racism when just the opposite is happening. The playing field has been leveled and the white majority is feeling very uncomfortable about being overachieved by people they consider to be socially, culturally and, in extreme cases, genetically inferior to themselves.

"By not taking race (or whatever) into account it just so happens that more ethnic minority applicants are successful in gaining jobs"

It just so happens? lol! All affirmative action DOES it take race into account. And surprise surprise, more ethnic minorities are getting Jobs. Do you think thats because the affirmative action program just HAPPENED to coincide with a massive increase in minority employability criteria? For Gods sake rolleyes

"You cry racism when just the opposite is happening."

No, I cry racism because it is a racist policy, as simple as that. Its a policy that has the everyday potential to punish white job seekers for the misdemeanours of past members of their race. You are punishing people simply because of the colour of their skin. By YOUR logic it would be fine for me to put all black people into prison because SOME of them committed crimes before I was born.

"white majority is feeling very uncomfortable about being overachieved by people they consider to be socially, culturally and, in extreme cases, genetically inferior to themselves."

ANOTHER racist statement. You lump the entire white race together under one label i.e. "racist". Do you even think when you make these racist comments about white people? Do you think they are true? YOURE white, but you dont think of these people as inferior etc, do you? In fatc, lets be honest, you clearly think they are SUPERIOR to you, and deserve special treatment. So why dont you lay off the racist remarks for a while eh?

"All affirmative action DOES it take race into account. And surprise surprise, more ethnic minorities are getting Jobs. Do you think thats because the affirmative action program just HAPPENED to coincide with a massive increase in minority employability criteria?"

Employability of ethnic minorities was/is hampered by one thing alone - racism.
Remove the issue of race and surprise, surprise! You have a whole load of perfectly qualified people that were once discriminated against because of their skin colour.

Removing racism means that more people from ethnic minorities will be employed. It is very simple to understand and it is not at all racist. It is the very removal of racism that causes the change.

"I cry racism because it is a racist policy, as simple as that. Its a policy that has the everyday potential to punish white job seekers for the misdemeanours of past members of their race. You are punishing people simply because of the colour of their skin."

Just listen to yourself! What are you talking about punishment?! So you are saying that it is punishing white people if we no longer discriminate against ethnic minorities? You have got your priorities all messed up!
Try and focus on the fact of President Johnson's Executive Order: "...ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin". I cannot fathom why you make the "intellectual" leap that removing racism is racist!

"By YOUR logic it would be fine for me to put all black people into prison because SOME of them committed crimes before I was born"

Almost worthy of the master himself - but you are no Herzog, no matter how much you want to be lil_ape.

Legalized racism existed right up until the 1960s and it was perfectly fine to not employ someone because of their ethnic origin. This attitude was a remnant of the days when it was acceptable to own slaves, lynch blacks and be in the Klan.
What better way to make up for that terrible treatment than to truly accept that ethnic minorities deserve no more than what is rightfully theirs as citizens of our countries? That's right - a fair chance at getting a job or into college or wherever.
So how do we do that? Simple - remove racism. Ta-daa! Affirmative action.
White people are not being punished - they just have more competition in the workplace.

"You lump the entire white race together under one label i.e. "racist"."

No, just the majority. And the majority are uncomfortable with accepting ethnic minorities on an equal footing. Especially in the USA.

"Do you even think when you make these racist comments about white people? Do you think they are true?"

Pointing out racist attitudes is not being racist. The racism still prevalent in the UK and USA is palpable - it is a very real and scary phenomenon. When you leave uni and experience more of the world around you, you'll see what I mean.

"YOURE white, but you dont think of these people as inferior etc, do you? In fatc, lets be honest, you clearly think they are SUPERIOR to you, and deserve special treatment."

I take it your caustic reference to "these people" means ethnic minorities? Steady on with the message of acceptance and love there! Real nice.
I don't think anyone is more or less superior, I just happen to advocate a system whereby everyone is treated as equals and race is not allowed to affect anyone's employability.

And just to make sure you understand: affirmative action means that ethnic origin does not play a role in someones employability. It removes the institutionalized racism that existed for centuries before the advent of the civil rights movement.

widehead... where do you live. That is exactly what happens. People who are more qualified get pass over all the time because of AA. Where I work there has to be a certain amount of blacks as dept. head. No matter if a white person has been there longer and smarter they get passed over.
Well given your language and writting skills Hurricaine, it would not surprise me if you got passed over. IC_pimp
Patch I am an administrator, I am over the dept. heads. I am typing and writing fast between jobs. Sorry if my skills offend you.
hurricane. Check out your public messages. I have some ballots I thought you'd enjoy




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