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COMMENTS:
Good Lord, Jenny, you're on a roll this morning!
Although I do agree that 9/11 was perpetrated by Muslim extremists, I do not consider those with a differing view to be "stupid."
Bright people often disagree about many things.
A lot of theologians might say they weren't being 'true' to Islam and therefore were not being Muslims.
griffon, that she is. A shame it's downhill in nature...
I doubt you'd find *anyone* in this post who'd deny what you say, that Muslim terrorists attacked us on 9/11. But, I also assert, that those men were *fundamentalists*, driven by a perverted view/interpretation of their faith. I can name you a number of Americans who are similarly driven, Fred Phelps among that number.
Ha! The vaunted "jenny17" ballot! How we missed them!
The U.S government cannot be trusted about ANYTHING.
Hah! They can't be as stupid as you.
Bush-Cheney 2008!
HOLY CRAP -- jenny is a FiddleFaddleOnLSD alias! It all makes sense now!
If the Conservatives take that seriously they're more devoid of brains than I previously thought. It's a clever ploy to see how those rapscallions react and it seems they are actually stupid enough to get mad at it. The conspiracy theories are nothing more than our way to have fun by pissing you dumbasses off! I derive great pleasure in messing with the minds of morons aka Conservatives.
WATCH OUT FOR MAD CONSPIRACY THEORIES!!!
(reposted from internet sources)
PARANOID FANTASIES ABOUT SEPT 11
Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will be at least one, usually several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it.
"Mahatma Ghandi’s ghost throttled Hendrix"
"Saddam Hussein was breeding an army of genetically modified Yeti".
"Hitler was half Werewolf"
"Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone" etc,etc.
The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.
So it's hardly surprising that the events of Sept 11 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales.
And as always, there is - sadly - a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.
One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11, and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they "hate our freedoms."
Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.
Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.
These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unaware by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able to.
Blindly ignoring the stand down of the US air-force, the insider trading on airline stocks - which remains uninvestigated, the complicit behaviour of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours , crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.
The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more stupid stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus it has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.
It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it, and deny that the first ever existed.
Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog, they then re-invent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as "the fruit loop" and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (il)logical conclusions.
According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the 4 planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives ,box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.
The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist.
For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.
If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists.
But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist.
With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID ( but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious.
However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched ? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.
"Excuse me sir, why do you have a box cutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?"
"A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get."
"Very strange", thinks the security officer. "That's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or box cutter and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess..."
Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane?
But by this time, the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis. They will point to the fact that the hijackers passports were allegedly found at the crash scenes. "So there!" they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just a revelation of questionable sanity.
Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated, and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently "Who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!" And so the whole loop starts again.
"Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?"
"You numbskull ! They assumed the identities of other passengers!" And so on…
Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unravelling of this marvellously stupid story.
"Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers? "
The answer of course is that its just one of those strange co-incidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen...
This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The "improbability drive", in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to suggest it, and then speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to try to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world).
There is a principle called "Occam's razor" which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.
Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with the silly story of the 19 invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.
Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the crew being able to alert Air Traffic Control (ATC ) is almost impossible. The crew needs only to punch in a four digit code to alert ATC to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that Sept 11, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the crude method of threatening people with box cutters and knives, shooting and stabbing passengers to try to lure the crew out of the cockpit and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously). And yet, miraculously they were able to take control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code.
Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.
So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breath taking skill and certainty to their fiery end, all four pilots unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah. Apart from their psychotic hatred of "our freedoms", it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will for this dreadful deed.
Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar -really impeccable Islamic behaviour - and then got up at 5am the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history. This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find.
It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skilfully guided them to their doom. If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to US intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi- believable.
Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that for a plane to instantly blow itself up into nothing like that, it would have to be packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.
But lets humour the conspiracy theorists and suppose that this crude cartoon designed to hide whatever really hit the building was actually a real plane.
Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and mange to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vaporising the plane? This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.
There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load!
Remarkable! Sluggishly combustible jet fuel which is basically kerosene, and usually burns at about 400c has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vaporizing 70 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 23 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about four times that of the normal combustion temperature of kerosene. And forget about the boiling point of these metals, which is what would be required to vaporize a plane. And then there's about 47 tons of aluminium to be accounted for. In excess of 15lbs of metal for each gallon of kerosene.
For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as "mumbo jumbo". This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, this very minute.
Determinedly ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vaporised into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.
"Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact!" they state with pompous certainty. "Watch any Bruce Willis movie!"
"Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation - other than Bruce Willis movies ?"
At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner into which they have backed themselves and plan their escape by means of another stunning back flip.
"Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling." they counter with a sly grin.
“Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before and since, and not vaporised into nothing.”
"But not big planes, with that much fuel ! ", they shriek in hysterical denial.
“Or that much metal to vaporise. “
"Yes, but not hijacked planes !"
"Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?"
"Now you're just being silly".
Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vaporise into nothing. What's so special about hitting a building?
But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. "Its a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact."
Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a "well known fact" and that "its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to", the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves (if not too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vaporisation of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit loop…
But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even creative more uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosene. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant vertical collapse of both the WTC towers as well as building 7, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosene.
This makes it necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosene which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vaporising a 70 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts starting fires all through the building. When I was at school there a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Their insane eyes glinting madly, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosene is enough to
: completely vaporise a 70 ton aircraft
: have enough left over to burn so ferociously for over an hour at the impact point that it melted massive steel construction beams ( melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel ).
: still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building.
Kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vaporised. And never again will I take kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vaporised into nothing - along with the rest of the camp site - with still enough of the deadly stuff left to start a massive forest fire.
These whackos are actually claiming that the mythical raging inferno allegedly created by this miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire -therefore not particularly hot, they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.
Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel girders softened they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.
Since they're already re-engineered the combustion qualities of kerosene, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and re-invented the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?
All three buildings fell in a time almost identical to that of a free falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that its physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors. But according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11.
It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knows no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the towers at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures, originally designed to withstand many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a large passenger jet straying off course.
Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why.
"Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir"
"No miss, the kerosene heater blew up and vaporised everything in the street, except for my passport."
"You see sir, the school bus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms."
Or perhaps they misunderstood the term "creative science" and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.
The ferocious heat generated by the ghastly kerosene was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by such heat. This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city. That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vaporise a 70 ton aircraft.
You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vaporised by the fuel tank explosion, maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing.
So there you have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time.
This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of 5 rings of building, each with a space in between of lower building height. Each ring of building is about 30 to 35 ft deep, with a similar depth of lower level space between the rings.
The missile which the Bush regime fired into it, went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat hole less than 20 ft wide, less than 20 ft high through three rings-about 250 ft into the building
A little later a section of wall about 65 ft wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact had a wing span of 125 ft and a length of 155 ft , and a tail height of 40 ft, and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly physically impossible.
But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of kerosene, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity, the second law of thermodynamics, and invented imaginary properties for building materials, so what the hell - why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well ?
I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy nut, this is "mumbo jumbo". It conflicts with their mad delusion, so it must be wrong although trying to get then to explain the specifics of how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.
Conspiracy nuts fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned. They shriek that the plane was vaporised by it's exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behaviour.
(Fruit loop warning !! )
Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly back flip to explain the 250 ft deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage).
As for what happened to the wings - here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.
When it suits them they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly, (ignoring the undamaged lawn) while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from above. How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in stupidity.
Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.
As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and prevent his endless war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.
At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery which was perpetrated on Sept 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in "retaliation" are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged.
Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia.
It's time to stop the loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11
The government deliberately creates ludicrous conspiracies so that all conspiraters are labelled as looneys. Remember the 'fake moon landing' conspiracy that was brought up and mocked a couple of months before 9/11?
Obviously Ken vote ultra stupid...then t prove it, he copy and pasted a fiction novel that no one on this site has ever read or will ever read.
if you can't cite anyone with a successful simulation of the collapses of the WTC buildings, where the actual collapses are simulated with the empirical data, then you don't have a case.
Let's not forget that nobody has yet simulated or modelled those collapses while ignoring controlled demlitions. NIST didn't, they stopped the simulations because they couldn't simulate the collapses with the empirical data, even in their worst case scenario! They gave up! Instead they added pages and pages of nonsense explanations, suppositions, and assumpions to cover what they couldn't simulate. NOVA and Eagar couldn't simulate the collapses either. Barant and Zhou had their math torn to pieces already as they tried to FORCE the simulations to fit, and changed them unrealistically. That chinese "engineer" didn't even publish his formula for his simulations, and he ADMITS in his paper that he forced the simulations in ways which deviated from reality, and he's not experienced with steel buildings anyway (he works with concrete). Dr Francis Green is a chemist, not an engineer or a physicist, and he did a similar trick, deviating from real data to force his formula to simulate what was impossible with the empirical data. Nobody has been able to simulate those collapses, except as controlled demolitions.
Most people know enough PHYSICS as in REAL PHYSICS to recognise a controlled demolition when they see it. They probably also know enough REAL PHYSICS to know that it's impossible for a steel & concrete, or a steel-framed tower building to collapse at nearly freefall THROUGH IT'S OWN STRUCTURE! The only way that can happen is when that steel structure is removed by a controlled demolition of some kind, whether using explosives, thermite, or similar. HISTORY SUPPORTS THIS, because NOT ONCE in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF STEEL-FRAMED BUILDINGS has such a building collapsed at nearly freefall into it's own foootprint without a controlled demolition.
I dare any of you to cite such an event and prove it happened
FDNY and other emergency services workers frequently have to be on standby for controlled demolitions, and gain a great deal of experience with explosions during triaing. On top of this, many of them have military experience, so a good proportion can recognise explosions when they hear them and see them. The witnesses to explosions and the obviousness of the controlled demolitions are supported by VIDEO, which you and every other shill I've debated this with on other sites have continually tried to ignore. On the VIDEOS, the lines of explosions blowing out the floors before the falling debris could reach those floors can be clearly seen in slow motion, and there's the seismic data showing impossibly short tremors revealing the use of explosives in those controlled demolitions.
Unlike the Pentagon, there is LOTS AND LOTS OF VIDEO supporting the WTC witnesses.
There are no false premises in stating FACTS.
It is a FACT that it is impossible to make a cellphone call from a metal-skinned passenger plane flying 5 to 6 miles up without an onboard cellular basestation (technology unavailable before 2004), and it is a FACT that it's impossible to make cellphone call last longer than a few seconds when moving at hundreds of miles per hour. Which means it's also without any doubt that the alleged cellphone calls from the planes were FAKE.
It is a FACT that no steel-framed hi-rises or tower buildings have ever collapsed directly downward at nearly freefall through their own structure into their footprint without a controlled demolition. It is a FACT that nobody has been able to simulate/model the WTC building collapses with the empirical data, except as controlled demolitions, and that according to the empirical data even in the worst case scenarios of NIST, the collapses were impossible and could not occurr, despite their layering of assumptions to explain the collapses because they couldn't model them.
The WTC buildings, all of them, were very conservative designs, despite the ambitious size of the Twin Towers.
FEMA was caught out telling lies about this. The towers were built to carry six times their own own TOTAL MASS. You could five more WTC towers built one on top of the other, and they would not have collapsed from the weight. Most skyscrapers are built this way for the simple reason that nobody wants them to come down in earthquakes. As I have mentioned, and others have repeatedly mentioned, NIST could not simulate the collapses with the empirical data. According to every simulation that they ran, the towers should not have collapsed at all. None of them should have. To have both towers and WTC 7 perform the impossible trick of having their mass collapse at near freefall THROUGH THEIR OWN STRUCTURE is akin to someone saying that a tree imploded straight down into it's own footprint.
FEMA kept trying to misrepresent the towers as being hollow tubes, which they weren't. FEMA also tried to misrepresent the towers by saying that the outer walls were what held up the buildings, which wasn't true at all; the massive over-engineered cores made of concrete and steel supported the buildings like the trunk of a Xmas tree, and had 60% of the strength of the buildings. By themselves, each core could carry over 3.5 times the total mass of the entire building. This is why the "pancake" and "weakened truss" excuses don't work. It's why the simulations, in the worst case scenarios kept coming up as showing that the buildings should not have collapsed.
NIST gave up on their simulations and stopped the worst one at "poised for collapse" because it wouldn't collapse, then they filled out a whole pile of pages explaining away what they could not simulate no matter hard that they tried.
NOVA and Eagar couldn't simulate the collapses either. NOVA also got caught out lying when they misrepresented the core and tried to pretend that the massive steel beams were skinny little matchstick things, and ignored the structural steel and concrete design of the massive core altogether. In most of their graphics, they hide it's size.
FEMA, NOVA, NIST, all tried to claim that the steel trusses were bolted on, which was a lie because in fact they were solidly welded.
And despite your sophist excuses NOBODY has been able to simulate those collapses as anything other than controled demolitions.
Unless you can cite some sources, links, and quotes to show otherwise. Your excuse falls flat.
No steel & concrete highrises, skyscrapers, or tower buildings have ever collapsed at near freefall straight down through their own structure (without controlled demolition) - except allegedly on the MAGIC DAY of 9/11, when magic and impossible things happened (vapourising planes, cellphone calls from six miles up, etc...)
NOT ONCE in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF STEEL-FRAMED TOWER BUILDINGS has such a building collapsed at nearly freefall into it's own footprint without a controlled demolition.
I dare you to cite such an event and prove it happened.
Lovelynice. It was a first on that day. You don't have a problem with that do you? There is always a first for everything. In fact there were a lot of firsts that day of 9/11. Prior to 9/11, when was the last time a 757 jet was hijacked and flown into the side of a building at 500 mph? And this happened three times, almost four. Regarding the collapse of those buildings and your comment "I dare you to cite such an event and prove it happened" is a misleading "strawman" argument.
And WTC 7?
Explain that collapse Jinn the 'mr top of my head hearf it down the pub arguments versus proven scientific analysis by esteemed professors' Kafir?
And WTC 7?
Explain that collapse Jinn the 'mr top of my head heard it down the pub arguments versus proven scientific analysis by esteemed professors' Kafir?
{Lovelynice. It was a first on that day..
by Jinn_the_Kafir on Wed Aug 23, 06 1:01am}
BULLSHIT
^Now there is real example of intellect folks. The articulate comment of a true genius at work. Such an overpowering response and argument that surely cannot be trumped with any valid reply, even by the greatest of the debating titans of our world. I am in a frozen state of awe. I am deeply humbled to be on the same page and website of such intelligence and brilliance.
ballot 101498
{^Now there is real example of intellect folks...
by Jinn_the_Kafir on Thu Sep 21, 06 12:41am}
Jinn, you make a silly claim, what else did you expect in reply? A Phd or something?
How about backing your bullshit with some evidence that steel-framed hi-rise buildings frequently collapse straight down through THEIR OWN STRUCTURE!
As far as I know, as far any expert I've ever spoken to knows, IT'S NEVER HAPPENED!
So, 9/11 must've been some kind magic miracle day. Which of course, is RUBBISH.
Your excuses, and the USA government's storytelling, are no better than fairytales.
Lovelynice. That was... AMAZING.
The way you back your facts, man!
It's even MORE amazing how you create a user just to come in and back up your own post on another user.
Skitzooooooooo anyone?
Voted : ultra stupid
- *deliberately* stupid !
Heh, I laugh every time I see this ballot. She asked them to post a thousand silly comments, and what do you know, they did. Ah, good for laughs, that is for sure.
Not stupid. But it was very ignorant not to make that an option.
Thoroughly vote-spammed ballot with a totally meaningless result so far removed from reality and any presented evidence, that you have to wonder why anyone posts these kinds of ballots. Propaganda games, maybe.
This ballot has been so ridiculously vote spammed, it's hilarious. How stupid are the people who believe that Arabs had anything to do with 9-11?
We've cited evidence which you just keep on either ignoring, avoiding, or can't counter.
Apart from myself, evidence has been cited against the Bush Administration's lies about 9-11 by Ken from Dublin, Lovelynice, Coldcircuit, Meteor7, have already cited aerial photos, video, and the hard evidence of the thermate traces discovered by Steven Jones.
Professor Steven Jones and his X-ray spectrometry evidence from samples taken at the WTC site show a perfect match for for the highly specialized compound "thermate" (used for cutting through steel) found in the WTC debris. (And no, thermate was NOT used during the clean up operation...this stuff was in the building, and ignited, prior to collapse.) If you're new to this information, you might want to check out "Molten Metal" and "Fire Initiated Collapse - Primary Arguments Against"
stopthelie . com / the _ evidence _is _ in . ht ml
You should also look up Steven Jones lecture on the subject which is available on video.
You have been claiming that evidence collected by thousands of people is not admissible only because it goes against the 9-11 story promoted by the Bush Administration. You've tried to dismiss for no reason at all, evidence from physicists such as Steven Jones. You've tried to dismiss for no reason at all witness testimonies which disagree with the official version, and you've also tried to dismiss for no reason at all video evidence of the explosions which are visible taking out the floors in those beautiful long perfect lines well below the collapsing debris falling from above. You've tried to dismiss for no reason at all witness testimony that the first explosions (decribed as huge booms) that triggered collapse in the twin towers began not at the impact point of the planes, but well below by 3-5 floors.
You also ignore the
135 Architects and Engineers who don't believe the Bush Administration's lies.
ae911truth . org
Another 170+ Engineers who don't believe the Bush Administration's lies.
patriotsquestion911 . com / engineers
50+ Pilots and Aviation professionals who don't believe the Bush Administration's lies.
patriotsquestion911 . com / pilots
140+ Professors who don't believe the Bush Administration's lies.
patriotsquestion911 . com / professors
On your side of the fence,
So far you have a lack of credible DNA evidence from an independent analysis, and no evidence of DNA from Arab hijackers. NONE. If a huge passenger jet really hit the Pentagon, then there would videos of it. There have been none publicly released. The bodies found at the Pentagon could easily be Pentagon staff. The DNA evidence is not convincing because it has not been independently verifiable. Btw, on ballot 101154, you were asked to support your claim that all the victims from the Pentagon crash were identified by their DNA - that would include orphans, and individuals with no living relatives. When you were asked to support this claim of yours, you never did. Instead you ran away and avoided the question. How about backing your claims with links, quotes, and sources as per what is required. Your word alone in not enough.
So far, there has been almost no wreckage which fits the alleged cricumstances nor the planes which that wreckage is claimed to come from. The plane parts are minuscule, minimal, and could easily have been from another aircraft. Many of the engine parts are from the wrong kind of engine - a similar case with the engine parts from the World Trade Center crashes.
The black box recorders were not independently analysed either, and worse, there is evidence of tampering as the times are wrong.
The passenger lists do not match up, and the different versions contradict each other.They include obviously fictional names that sound similar.
The airfone calls become less credible because the cellphone calls were impossible, making the airfone calls suspicious. It's too easy to fake a phone call. For example, the notorious "Hi Mom, it's me" scam.
Expert eyewitness testimony also says those were controlled demolitions.
Lack of independent and full investigation - there has never been a full and proper independent investigation into 9-11 despite the demands of the survivors and victims relatives to this very day. Scientific investigations have not yet simulated the collapses themselves while being based only on the empirical data, nor have any mathematical or computer simulations shown there was enough energy for the gravitational collapse.
You've shown no evidence connecting Arab hijackers to 9-11. You've shown no links between Osama bin Laden and 9-11, and the FBI deny that they have found any such links. The only videos where Osama bin Laden allegedly "claims credit" for 9-11 all appear to be fakes, and go against what he said already back in 2001
“The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations.”
—Usama bin Laden (Saudi Arabian), CNN News, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people."
—Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001
I'm sure you will say he lied, but I could easily turn it around and say he lied when you say he confessed. I've seen the so-called confession tape, and it does not appear to be bin Laden. To me it appears to be a an imposter in the video I've seen. There have also been studies done on the bin Laden video and audio tapes, concluding that they were faked. And as of today, it's the FBI who confessesthey don't have any "hard evidence" linking him to 9/11.
how are they stupid becuase they think something differnt i think some one is feeling a bit out of order today and does everyone forget the london 7/7 attacks alot of people died aswell its like it never bloody happened ! i bet there is at least one person here who hasent heard of 7/7
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