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COMMENTS:
Now, for people to come on here and deny that this ever happens.
Herzog??? Where are the other choices?? Have you ever lived in a European country? Or England?
I lived in England for half my life, and I didn't have to give up any of the things you listed above.
My taxes covered my healthcare. They weren't substantially higher than taxes I pay in the U.S. Now, however, I pay about the same % of tax but have to pay $7000 / year for catastrophic healthcare (translated: it covers nothing unless I have a mortal illness or a devastating accident).
I didn't get 'free' healthcare in England. My dad doesn't get 'free' healthcare because he served 30 years in the U.S. military. There's a price to be paid for everything.
This issue, like so many others, is NOT black and white.
by mojo on Mon May 29, 06 1:51pm
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I wouldn't give up any
by ABC on Mon May 29, 06 2:18pm
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Herzog believes whatever he wants to believe.
Intelligent people know that no freedoms have to be given up in order to bring forward decent standards of living for all, and this is all so much smoke and mirrors to mask the folly of a free market system where everything has a price and life is cheap.
As long as Herzog lives in the comfort zone and never knows want he will never truly understand. When his world collapses around him and he needs a helping hand, policies he is now in favour of will prevent himn getting a helping hand.
Duke has put up another of his silly strawman ballots. You don't have to give up ANY rights to obtain national healthcare. All civilized, progressive, advanced nations should have it.
It's regressive, fascistic rightwingers who prevent it from becoming reality in the United States.
In fact, the necessity for national healthcare is so obvious, that even some regressive dictatorships have it.
The real question for Americans should be:
Are there any rights/freedoms you'd give up to get safety from terrorism and all the other things the Bush regime promises?
I never said you had to give these things up necessarily to have free healthcare. This ballot was made specifically to refute those people who defend communist regimes on the grounds that they offer all these free services. I'm trying to point out that this isn't a very good defense for tyranny. Reread the ballot question please.
You call it tyranny, but the people of those countries rose up and kicked out the ruling elites like Batiste and the Romanovs.
Lets stop this bogus communist argument, as you know that every word you spout about it is alf truth and lie.
The question could be put, would you give up that extra cup of coffee per day in order to finance a universal health system. Thats how much tax it would cost.
Hmmm why don't people READ the ballot in full? Herzog explained himself fairly thoroughly.
If you develop an ongoing illness, wait and see how your liberties disappear, one by one. If you're unable to pay for healthcare, wait and see how much more trapped you feel.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
by mojo on Mon May 29, 06 3:44pm
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The facts are Brake, the right could not give a monkeys bum nuts about freedom.
Freedom to them is the freedom to exploit and control the means of production and the people.
A so called democracy like the UK, have more laws banning things than there are for freedoms.
In the US the patriot act is arguable the most dangerous piece of legislation that has been passed in decades.
So lets be a little less blinkered about so called free countries.
Mojo: so you would sacrifice various freedoms to be promised free medical care in one of these countries, or is it not worth it to you?
Steel: create whatever euphemism you want to let you sleep at night, those mean scary regimes for all I care. Let's take cuba, when fidel was criticized for robbing his country of nearly a billion dollars and making himself one wealthy revolutionary, you defended the regime on the grounds that people there don't starve, and I'm sure you have pointed out their high employment and literacy rate and free healthcare before as well.
Is that worth it to you to give up the freedoms you'd have to give up to live in such a country? Or is the 'well at least they have free healthcare, et al' defense of these tyrannies not a reasonable argument?
I really wish people would read the question and respond to what I actually asked instead of making up their own question and answer that.
break: I did explain the ballot in full, and they understood perfectly.
People do this all the time. When I ask questions on ballots that have uncomfortable answers for certain people they just invent some other question and pretend I asked that, then respond to the fictitious question. Well, either that or call me a racist. The people who do this do it so often and aren't nearly dumb enough for me to believe they're actually misinterpreting it every time, so it has to be some sort of cognitive dissonance.
"You call it tyranny, but the people of those countries rose up and kicked out the ruling elites like Batiste and the Romanovs."
CUBA. I'm sure you would love to live there. It seems to be your "ideal" place.
"Freedom to them is the freedom to exploit and control the means of production and the people."
 More tired old communist rhetoric.
"In the US the patriot act is arguable the most dangerous piece of legislation that has been passed in decades."
Once again you talk about American politics as if you were an expert. At least the US doesn't have a blasphemy law on the books. Oh, and you can't criticize the Queen, can you? That is illegal too.
"the right could not give a monkeys bum nuts about freedom."
The true right in the US has always supported less government interference. You demonstrate your ignorance of American politics again by confusing Bush and pals with true conservatism.
If you had an original thought about communism rather than posting the same old tired catch phrases, I would probably have a heart attack.
Hey steel, what about all those Cuban refugees building makeshift rafts crossing shark-infested waters trying to reach the USA. It must really be great in Cuba for all those people to risk their lives trying to leave.
Steel:
You're right, the right hates freedom, except for themselves.
And it's ironic that the rightwingers on B&W criticize you when you point out that there has never really been a true communist state, just dictatorships masquerading as communist states, but then turn around, when you point out the fascistic tendencies of the right, and say that they aren't really "true conservatives." They change their tune when the shoe is on the other foot.
"I never said you had to give these things up necessarily to have free healthcare."
That is the implication which you give, however, when one reads the title of the ballot.
I'm not willing to give up my freedoms in order to deny freedom to others.
The ballot question in this case suggests a rate of substitution of one between civil liberties and "free healthcare" which I dont believe is the case. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive. England was a good example of how you can have BOTH, up until recent years anyway.
CT, lil ape, that's why I added the rest of the explanation afterwards. You see, those two paragraphs would not fit in the ballot title box.
The question is perfectly clear, it's just that most people don't want to answer it.
I won't give up essential liberties for *anything*. I shouldn't *have* to.
I will focus my response on the poor developing nations.
The bland fact of the matter is that many people in the poorest countries are willing to put with lack of democracy, lack of free speech, and lack of free press in exchange for stability and order (something we completely take for granted), as well as any economic benefits that are, at least from their perception, being given.
I guess that some people are willing to overlook free speech, etc, when they don't have the basics- food, water, etc. What good is freedom of speech if one is dying of thirst? Poor People in the Global South have more moderate and basic desires.
Its when living standards rise that discontent with the lack of freedom really begin to explode into mass demands.
Or so it seems.
With the rise of Bush fascism, Americans will be able to give up all their liberties, and still not have health care.
Viva El Presidente Bush!
Give up property. As in land of course. That is how the Native Americans lost their land. Because they thought it was so ridiculous that someone could "OWN" the land.
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