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COMMENTS:
I should also point out what some America docs say: Theodare Marmor of the Yale School of Management: "Turning to the United States for (health care) cost-control models is like visiting a brothel to learn about chastity; we Americans spend more than 14 percent gdp on health care, compared to Canada's less than 10%. Serious investigation of the U.S. system would, I believe, lead the most thoughtful Canadians to conclude that ordinary financing and delivering of medical care south of the border does not provide many solutions for Canada's stress."
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 9:57am
[+]
system or quality of care? big difference.
you also have to remember that as of about few years ago, they are no officially factoring in alternative medicine in their total calculation on what americans spend on healthcare. thats totally misleading. e.g. everytime a person buys some "new age" remedy or has elective surgery, its being factored in. can you see how that totally skews the reality?
^ should read they are *now* factoring in
Harvard Medical School researchers find Canadians are healthier and have better access to health care than U.S. residents.
"The data is clear and really irrefutable: Canadians are healthier than Americans and they have better access to medical care," Dr. Steffy Woolhandler of the Harvard Medical School said Tuesday. She added that medical care is easier to access for Canadians.
The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Harvard Medical School researchers. They also found that:
Canadians were seven per cent more likely to have a regular doctor
Canadians were 19 per cent less likely than Americans to have their health needs go unmet.
Americans were more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines because of cost.
Discrepancies in health care become even wider when taking into account income, age, sex, race and immigrant status. In those kind of detailed comparisons, Canadians were 33 per cent more likely to have a regular doctor and 27 per cent less likely to have an unmet health need.
Meanwhile, Americans had higher rates of nearly every serious chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and chronic lung disease, even though U.S. residents were less likely to be smokers.
"We pay almost twice what Canada does for care, more than $6,000 for every American, yet Canadians are healthier, and live two to three years longer," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard and study co-author.
This first-ever cross-national health survey analyzed data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health, with data collected by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics.
It follows a similar study released earlier this month that found white, middle-aged Americans were less healthy than their British counterparts, who spent half as much on health care.
In the latest study, the researchers suggest the biggest barrier to health care in the United States is cost.
More than seven times as many U.S. residents reported going without needed care due to cost, compared to Canadians.
Uninsured U.S. residents were particularly vulnerable, with 30.4 per cent having an unmet health need due to cost, the study reported.
Wait times not a factor in study
CTV's Avis Favaro said the study found Canadians wait, on average, three times more than Americans for medical treatment.
"But when you look at the actual number, it was aa little over three per cent waiting for medical treatment, which is a tiny proportion when you look at the big picture, although doctors and patients might disagree with that," she said.
Lead author Dr. Karen Lasser said that, while Canada gets negative press about long wait times for medical procedures, the health system seems to work better.
"No one ever talks about the fact that low-income and minority patients fare better in Canada," said Lasser, a primary care doctor at Cambridge Health Alliance and an instructor at Harvard Medical School. "Based on our findings, if I had to choose between the two systems for my patients, I would choose the Canadian system hands down."
Dr. Raisa Deber of the University of Toronto said the message of the study is that "the sky is not falling."
"The take-home message is: When you compare Canada to the United States, Canada is spending a lot less money to get better results," said Deber, who specializes in health policy, management and evaluation.
"There are small improvement in places that could be fixed and could be made better. But on average the system is working quite well."
The one problem noted in the study: About 21 per cent of Canadian women were not receiving recommended cervical cancer screening.
"However, death rates from cervical cancer have long been lower in Canada than in the United States, presumably reflecting past screening practices and population risk factors," the study said.
The Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health surveyed 3,505 Canadians and 5,183 U.S. residents between November 2002 and March 2003
system or quality of care? big difference.
Kev, actually Canada has a very good level of health care. The States does too, IF you can afford it.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 10:43am
[+]
once again, allow me to point out how it works. if you do not have insurance healthcare is free in the united states for all people who cannot afford to pay. it is called medicaid.
for all senior citizens that paid into the system, its called medicare.
so this notion that a poor person cannot get healthcare is just wrong.
now, greater minds than yours or mine have tried to figure this all out -- do you think you're going to solve it in this tiny comment box? doubtful.
so lets put it this way -- i don't live in canada, so no little about your system and no amount of reading shit on the web is going to educate and inform me enough about your system.
same for us. you know little of our system and thats to be expected.
so, just like everyone has an asshole, everyone has an opinion. see my point?
"you also have to remember that as of about few years ago, they are no officially factoring in alternative medicine in their total calculation on what americans spend on healthcare."
Maybe that's because it's not a substantially high number? If it WERE relavant, surely the statistics would be factored in? The fact remains, Americans spend a high amount for health care. NOt all of whom can afford it.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 10:48am
[+]
Harvard Medical School researchers find Canadians are healthier and have better access to health care than U.S. residents.
"The data is clear and really irrefutable: Canadians are healthier than Americans and they have better access to medical care," Dr. Steffy Woolhandler of the Harvard Medical School said Tuesday. She added that medical care is easier to access for Canadians.
The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Harvard Medical School researchers. They also found that:
ahh, and what factor are you/they not considering here? hmmm, lets see. could it be immigration? see thats the fucked up thing with studies -- if you don't know the origin of the data, or the calculation of stats, you just can't quote a study and say 'see, here's the answer."
we also have nearly 300 million people, compared to your roughly 32 million people. now. factor in that we naturally have a much greater percentage of the population that is old. did you see that in your study?
factor in that we also have a much higher immigration rate. was that factored in your study?
just 2 "factors" of the many that you probably did not even think about.
"so this notion that a poor person cannot get healthcare is just wrong."
I didn't say a person couldn't get healthcare, but those that can't afford to pay, don't get a good quality of healthcare.
"now, greater minds than yours or mine have tried to figure this all out -- do you think you're going to solve it in this tiny comment box?"
No, but when has that stopped anyone on B&W? Besides, even your own docs think our system is better. Whom am I to believe? An American student or a doctor?
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 10:52am
[+]
America needs national health care, as soon as possible.
Maybe that's because it's not a substantially high number? If it WERE relavant, surely the statistics would be factored in? The fact remains, Americans spend a high amount for health care. NOt all of whom can afford it.
by aya on Jun 09, 2006 10:48am
holy cow! can you read! i said they are factored in. are aya -- are! you need reading comprehension remedial help. 
The U.S. "free market" system has so many private sector layers of bureaucracy, (and profit margins) built in, it's inefficient as hell--expensive and lousy. Once you make the leap that everyone should get health care, and no one should be left to die for financial reasons, then you need to nationalize it. It becomes much more cost-effective.
No, but when has that stopped anyone on B&W? Besides, even your own docs think our system is better. Whom am I to believe? An American student or a doctor?
by aya on Jun 09, 2006 10:52am
really? all of them? you read that all of them think this way aya? or you read some quotes by some who feel this way?
did you call them all and ask them? can you reference a study that shows over 51% feel this way, to support your assertion that all of them feel this way?
no, you can't. so i should believe you? an under-achieving student?
come back to me when you have actually done thorough research and have done more than read a few snipets here and there and then made a conclustion based on nothing.
First off, chillax.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:03am
[+]
And thanks for the put downs. Secondly, how relevant is the cost of new age science to overall medical care? If it's not officially factored in, how relavent could it be? Third, since you're trying so hard to disprove my point, find some references to where Americans claim that your system is better.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:06am
[+]
"really? all of them? you read that all of them think this way aya?"
Many of them. Haven't seen to many praising the U.S. system over ours.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:09am
[+]
aya, i can't be bothered. you're in one of your moods. good luck. later.
"no, you can't. so i should believe you? an under-achieving student?"
No, you should believe in evidence.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:13am
[+]
"no, you can't. so i should believe you? an under-achieving student?"
Believe what you want. I didn't ask you to come to the ballot.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:15am
[+]
and if you could think outside of the box for one second, you might see that i am not trying to disprove your point, as much as i'm suggesting that your point maybe be flawed and based on bad info.
if you knew anything about studies, you'd know that unless you know the parameters, criteria and calcualbes involved, as study is worthless.
you say you've read the opinions of many of them? how many? do you know how many doctors there are i the united states?
here's a clue about studies:
- how many doctors took part?
- what field are they in? orthopedics? thorasic? internal medicine?
- of the doctors surveyed, what is their patient demographic? e.g. do they treat more senior citizen patients, or younger (who visits the dr. more often aya? old people and babies).
- do they practice in poor or rural areas? why is that important aya? think about it.
so, my point is, you seem to have come to conclusions all on your own.
keep them if you want. i however realize that the statements you make are purely subjective and not in any way fact or reality.
and so you know, if an american wrote this ballot making these claims about canada's, i'd be saying the same thing.
"no, you can't. so i should believe you? an under-achieving student?"
No, you should believe in evidence.
by aya on Jun 09, 2006 11:13am
^^ i do. you however present none. bugger off aya, you're annoying me now.
"if you knew anything about studies, you'd know that unless you know the parameters, criteria and calcualbes involved, as study is worthless."
Actually, I didn't even suggest a study. It was Closet Iguana, ask him what he thinks of studies.
I didn't mention a thing about studies, all I mentioned what I learned after studying the two systems. The information I came across wasn't from studies. It's not some pro-jingoistic rant, either.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:20am
[+]
"i do. you however present none. bugger off aya, you're annoying me now."
Bugger off. What're you, English? And, you're on my ballot, so maybe you should bugger off.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:21am
[+]
you're an idiot in one of your moods again. freak.
"i however realize that the statements you make are purely subjective and not in any way fact or reality."
In what way? Didn't I compare the two systems? I didn't offer anything from a study. All I did was convey how the two systems work, and what a U.S. doc has to say about it.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:25am
[+]
Kev
"If you knew anything about studies, you'd know that unless you know the parameters, criteria and calcualbes involved, as study is worthless."
True, but a study published in the American Journal of Public Health holds more water than someone opinion on a message board.
"you're an idiot in one of your moods again. freak."
Why are you still here?
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:26am
[+]
CI, he's in a mood, forget it.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:27am
[+]
 brainless idiot. can't even be original. loser.
an closet, once again, read my comment. share with us the criteria of the study. do you have that? go back and read my comment again. geesh.
Kev, why are you here, fag?
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 11:41am
[+]
^ thats the best you can do? call me fag?
ahh, but if someone made a derogotory comment about your ethnicity, you'd scream like a little girl, wouldn't you?
grow up aya. you have serious issues. get help.
want to keep this going? go ahead.
Come on guys...say you're sorry and shake hands.
"you have serious issues. get help."
I have issues?? You come here and scream at me for no reason, and I have issues. I thought you were done, why are you still on my ballot?
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 12:21pm
[+]
Tell you what, try some anger management counselling, you could really use it.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 12:23pm
[+]
^ because its not your ballot, its our ballot. see the distinction? once up, it belongs to all of us.
Actually, no. I wrote this ballot, that by definition makes it mine. I came up with the content. So, if you say you're done with me, why are you still on MY ballot?
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 12:28pm
[+]
"want to keep this going? go ahead."
I'm not the one who started the fight, who started the insults. I could see why Herzog once thought you to be troll who ruined ballots.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 12:33pm
[+]
Ok, forget it. I'm sorry, let's just stop fighting, truce, truce, truce, truce.
by aya on Fri Jun 09, 06 1:00pm
[+]
cranky summed it up nicely. I don't say this lightly. Been there, done that -- in both systems. The U.S. needs some form of national health care. And if you've ever experienced being uninsured (because the premiums are too high) in the greatest country on the planet, perhaps you aren't qualified to comment. Just the opinion of a middle-class, working person who lived in England half her life.
by mojo on Fri Jun 09, 06 1:15pm
[+]
As for quality of care, my dad - who lives in England half the year - has had TWO procedures over there that he couldn't get in the U.S. Thank God, because one of them saved his life.
by mojo on Fri Jun 09, 06 1:19pm
[+]
** karma **
I'm Truthseeker013, and I'm a victim of private medicine.
Both systems have they're own problems. But to say Canada's is much better is not true. Many Canadians cross over to the US to seek out care. I work in the healthcare field and we have many Canadians employed down here, many at the hospital I work at. They'll tell you their system has many problems.
I'd like to see a statistic showing how many U.S. citizens cross the border into Canada to obtain affordable drugs (mostly manufactured here in the U.S.), as opposed to Canadians who seek alternative treatments in the U.S.
I'd also be interested to know how many people have found themselves out on the streets, having lost their home and all their savings, in Canada due to medical bills ...
Healthcare should not be a privilege of the wealthy.
by mojo on Fri Jun 09, 06 3:07pm
[+]
Even if we concede that national healthcare is not as good as the private variety, we must admit that a person needing treatment would obviously prefer a less perfect treatment to none.
America is controlled by corporations, and the most powerful of these is the healthcare and pharmaceutical companies.
National healthcare will come to the wealthiest nation on the earth only after the reduction or elimination of bribery (lobbying, PAC's & special interests).
It isn't going to happen until we have open elections (anyone can run, and it isn't restricted by two parties of rich folks who each poor folks nominate a candidate for us), and an end to "votes for hire" candidates.
Neither the President nor the Congress have the will to oppose their benefactors on anything -- and the public is slowly awakening.
Or so we hope.
It is obvious.
There is NOTHING more fundamental than physical health and proper medical care. This should be considered a basic human right, and not a privilege. If it isn't, we may as well not treat people who can't afford medical care. After all, it's bad for business and the economy if someone can't pay their medical bills, is it not?
The concept that someone can be ruined financially if they have a serious illness or accident is beyond offensive. It's sick.
The point I was making is that if Canada's healthcare system is so great there would be no need for Canadians to cross the border. I never said the US healtcare system was perfect.
You wouldn't hold back a bottle of water from a man dying of thirst in the desert just because he didn't have the proper change. That would be downright cruel.
Give me a private system any day rather than the socialized garbage we have here in the US and you have up there in Canada. You should really educate yourself before you make these ignorant ballots. Reading my reply to your uninformed message would be a good start. America does not equal capitalism. Allow me to reiterate.
-The US GOVERNMENT spends more per capita on healthcare than the Canadian government. In fact, only two or three governments in the world spend more per capita. There's nothing free about that market.
-HMOs were created by an act of congress, not the market.
-The US has the most regulated pharmaceutical industry in the world. Drugs drive medical costs through the roof.
-The US GOVERNMENT has granted monopolies to several health professional organizations. This also drives up costs.
-Health outcomes are more related to lifestyle than health access. The top third of Americans get diseases at higher rates than the bottom third of Britons, even though they have better access to and higher quality healthcare.
We tend to think because costs are incurred by individuals and rarely aggregated that our way is cheaper and better.
It is expensive and access is nowhere near as good as people assume.
Voted : Neither one really seem to work
theres still people dying on street corners because insurance companies dont "cover" them
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