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COMMENTS:
see ballot #96881 see I have a theme going:-)
Actually the Cross is a Christian symbol because Christ was crucified on a cross, which was a common means for the Roman Empire to execute people.
A fine case of Bait- n- Switch.
You start with the accusation that they want to remove a cross from a War Memorial. Then you slide over to an insinuation that this applies to personal graves, as well.
Personally, I think that crosses on War Memorials are inappropriate. I'd be against including them in planned memorials.
As to existing memorials ... I'd look at that situationally, being sensitive to any historic impacts.
BTW, it is not 'anti- Christian bigotry' that motivates this action -- that is an hysteric over- reaction to a perceived loss of privilege.
And Cathexis, once again, answer the question or move along. Why be so rude with the rolling eye emoticon!
Personally, I think that crosses on War Memorials are inappropriate. I'd be against including them in planned memorials.
As to existing memorials ... I'd look at that situationally, being sensitive to any historic impacts.
BTW, it is not 'anti- Christian bigotry' that motivates this action -- that is an hysteric over- reaction to a perceived loss of privilege.
by Cathexis on Jul 05, 2006 10:27am
Well!!! So would the Star of David be inappropriate? What about the Muslim Crescent? You conveniently leave those out. And you wonder why Liberals LOST!! You're a perfect example of why.
Oh, and they do not 'attack the cross becaus ethey think it is a Christian symbol' -- they protest the inappropraiet display of it by Government because of its religious (any religious) connotations.
Your insistence on making this a persecution complex issue handily helps you avoid the actual issues involved.
patch: For a War Memorial, yes -- I would leave off ANY and ALL religious symbols.
For private graves, people should be free to choose whatever symbology they so desire.
Sorry, thought I had made that clear.
Looks who is talking Cathexis. You're doing EXACTLY what you say Trebor is doing!!!!!
patch: As for my eye-rolling emoticon -- that is in reference to the ballot author's Persecution Complex and the wording of the ballot. Yes, I feel it was merited.
Rude? Perhaps. But, IMO, merited.
I do not agree that the ACLU has an 'Anti- Christian bigotry' and have little patience for people who try to dodge behind such fabrications.
How dare you assume he has a persecution complex! When we RIGHTFULLY assume you have a TOTAL bias againt all things White, Christian and American (and male), how do you like it?
I think you have some nerve assuming Trebor has a persecution complex. You have blinders on. Take them off or they'll be ripped off.
Ok Cathexis I have no clue what you mean about bait and switch but I can tell you that it will become a situation that any body wanting to put a religious symbol on any memorial will and has taken place. Here in AZ awhile back the ACLU tried to keep some crosses and flags off of a veteran’s grave because it was government land. No it is not hysterics just because we are stating facts of something that has and will continue to happen. And again if we are going to remove one type of religious symbol we better remove them all. Hey lets start with liberals Haha hehe hoho LOL:-)you obviously hate Christians but stop and look at it this way what if it was you favorite religion liberalism that was under attack wouldn't you try to say something about it. I know for a fact you would because I have seen you do it here on this site. So why are you so adamant against us stating the same thing we are under attack and it will affect you some day because your beliefs better stay with main beliefs otherwise you will have people like you saying the same things that you are saying about us
trebor: I do not hate Christians at all.
I merely disagree with you.
Signif icantly.
There is a difference.
patch: Sounds as if this thread has lost whatever constructive intent it may have had. I'll leave it at that.
If you do not hate Christians and are against religion why are you letting a Muslim organization that make laws and policies that run our country be your hero they are the lefts super hero when it comes to thing like this they will jump on any band wagon against any religion except Muslims and in effect are letting a religion that hates Christians and Jews control this country
patch: Sounds as if this thread has lost whatever constructive intent it may have had. I'll leave it at that.
by Cathexis on Jul 05, 2006 11:15am
Yes!! Thanks to you it did.
I don't think we have a choice because the War memorial is owed by the government and therefore it can not establish a religion.The solution to the problem would be to have a private group buy the land that the war memerial sits on,that way there would be no state and church issue.
It is stupid that they want to remove something from an existing memorial. Pure idiocy. Ditto for those asking for it.
I seriously doubt that any group would be able to remove a cross or star of David from a person's grave marker without riots ensuing.
Cathexis, perhaps you can enlighten me as to which Christians you do like. I have certainly seen you on numerous occasions appear to put them all in a group called "the religious right" which you then demonise.
FF: You are incorrect, sir. If anything, I have taken great pains to separate members of the Religious Right from 'Real Christians.'
I have great respect for real Christians. But none for people who hide their personal bigotries and hatreds behind the mantle of religion. I do not consider the RR to be Christians in anything but name -- which is why I refer to them as the RR, and not as Christians.
RR apologists like to promote the idea that Evangelical Fundamentalists are the only true Christians. But should this come as a surprise, since they believe that all "unsaved" Christians are going to Hell?
You evaded answering my question cathexis. Who are the real Christians per your judgment?
Absolutely ridiculous, when is the ACLU going to support the roughly 85% of Americans who actually believe in God.
I'm tired of athiests bullshit can rattling about the ills of 'symbols of religion' as though being able to even see a cross is *GASP* such a horrible thing.
How about sex and violence on television, I don't see the ACLU doing anything about that, it's okay for our children to see that shit on television, in advertisements, in the movies, yet a cross or the ten commandments is going to cause significant damage to some athiest's kids?? Give me a break. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. There is no harm being done to any 'minority' simply because of religious symbols being on or involved in certain goverment facilities. I'm sick of this baseless accusation. If and when situations occur that show improper influence of religion on decision making that can be attributed to these 'religious symbols' THEN these idiots will have a valid complaint, until then, give it a freaking rest, we're tired of all this bullshit.
Fiddle:
Cathexis did answer your question.
The ACLU defends to rights of all people, including rightwing goons like Rush Limbaugh, who the ACLU has defended in court.
I'm guessing if the giant symbol on that memorial had been a crescent that more than a few Christian rightwingers would be crapping themselves.
Can you imagine the howls of outrage if, today, a city government tried to put a crescent in a public space?
The same fundamentalist, Evangelical Christians who attack Middle Eastern countries for being dominated by Islam at every level would love to do the same thing to the U.S., only with Christianity.
And I love how when it suits their argument, that fundamentalist conservatives like to portray themselves as a persecuted minority, then turn around in the next argument and claim that the U.S. is an overwhelmingly Christian country.
Which is it, rightwingers, are Christians a tiny, persecuted minority of chosen ones, or are they the overwhelmingly dominant majority in the U.S.?
BTW, I'm proud to be a card carrying, dues-paid-up-in-full member of the ACLU.
trebor:
"why are you letting a Muslim organization"
The ACLU isn't a Muslim organization.
"that make laws and policies that run our country"
The ACLU doesn't make the laws and policies that run our country. That used to be the job of the Congress (at least it was before Bush became dictator).
"they will jump on any band wagon against any religion"
So, they've been jumping on some bandwagon against Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, and Jews? That last one is especially interesting, since many rightwingers declare the the ACLU is a Jewish organization.
"and in effect are letting a religion that hates Christians and Jews control this country."
The ACLU doesn't have the power to let anybody control this country, and Muslims certainly don't control the United States.
Cranky
fiddlefaddleonlsd and EVERYBODY ELSE
SORRY!!!!!! SORRY!!!
It got mixed up in my Head AGAIN!!!!! I was getting it confused with OAAU the organization that Malcolm X started and for some reason I was thinking that Malcolm X had started the ACLU. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES I did not mean to misinform any body or offend anybody.
Although the ACLU has historically been anti Religious freedoms using the separation of church and state Argument.
AGAIN I AM SORRY I do have mental dyslexia and get thing mixed now and then and do not catch the mistakes, and it gets worse when I get tired. Not using it as an excuse just giving you the reason. Again I truly am Sorry
Please accept my apologies
cranky see the above statement
Thanks for the correction. That was big of you to admit your error.
You stand head and shoulders above another poster I could mention, who, after making an error simply disappears from the ballot, refusing to acknowledge it, and pretending it simply didn't happen.
Your honesty certainly deserves some aura, which I would give you, except that the poster I mentioned above used one of his aliases to strip me of all mine.
Anyhow,
Cheers.
hey thanks cranky how about some karma then. just kidding about the karma lol:-)
but i am not about the thanks and when you have dislexia yoiiu get used to being wrong you still don't like it but at least you are more supsetable to realizing that you could be wrong.
so i guess since you are a ultra liberal you must not have Dislexia of any sort hohohohahahahehehe LOL LOL LOL just kidding well thanks any way
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