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ISRAEL VERSUS LEBANON...

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[+] ballot by _Beelzebubba

Who do you support and why?

Israel
Lebanon
Neither. People in the Middle East are always fighting about something
piece
Piece o' ass!
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COMMENTS:
It isn't Israel versus Lebanon. It is Israel versus Hezbollah (and Syria and Iran who fund Hezbollah).
I avoid watching the news, so many innocent people suffering.
So all those women and children being massacred are Hezbollah then? Sorry, my bad.
No sense in the matter on either side.
I support Israel because they are only trying to defend their citizens and get their soldiers back.It is unfortunate that innocent civilians have be killed but that is Hezbollah's fault.They setup their operations in residential areas to purposely cause Israel to kill innocents and look bad.
The Israelis are destroying Lebanon as an act of associative rage, and vengeance, over their, as yet, inability to defeat one small group of Muslims.

There is no justification for much of the macho, fascistic destruction they are engaged in, and no need to whitewash Israeli actions.

What are the Israelis suppose to do cranky just let their people be killed and captured by Hezbollah?
Cranky, the non-Hezbollah areas have been relatively free from damage. I saw on NBC last night that in the Christian area of Beirut people are going about their normal business including going out to nightclubs. Perhaps you should place blame on Hezbollah for being so cowardly as to place their headquarters, military depots, etc in mosques, homes and other public areas. I can even show you a map that shows the very limited area where bombs have been dropped. Unfortunately, you don't get this impression from most sensationalistic news reports though.
Those smart bombs they got from us are so smart, they even took out a post of UN observers. Way to go. IC_mojotu
Can you blame Israel? They have the seemingly unending unjudging love and devotion of the worlds most powerful nation behind them, they can do whatever the fuck they want to be blunt. Plus, America seem to have brought heavy civilian caualties back into fashion, so you can hardly blame the Israelies for following suit.

Anyway, they are Gods "chosen children" after all, so pretty much whatever they do is right, right?

I support piece. Killing innocent civilians is wrong no matter what the reason is.
Lil they don’t only have America behind them but they fund the us elections so if bush didn’t let them do anything they wanted they’d just not fund the republicans in the next election and give the democrats even more money.
what were the two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah doing in Lebanon in the first place? IF they had been captured within Israel (which would indicate Hezbollah had invaded Israel) it would be a different matter. Errr does the fact the Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon mean they were there illegally, illegal aliens or invaders?? WHAT WERE THEY DOING IN LEBANON?
" what were the two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah doing in Lebanon in the first place? IF they had been captured within Israel (which would indicate Hezbollah had invaded Israel) it would be a different matter. Errr does the fact the Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon mean they were there illegally, illegal aliens or invaders?? WHAT WERE THEY DOING IN LEBANON? "

I'm beginning to understand how holocaust deniers and their kind started... The soldiers were inside Israel. The soldiers in the last successful kidnapping in 2000, were in israel, and on the failed kidnapping attempts over the last years, no Israeli soldier crossed into Lebanon.

yosi
they were over the border in Lebanon
check your facts, would you like me to give you some links?

I already recieved links, one from a site whose title is something like liberating Iraq from the western conquerers, and another one from a correspondent in Damascus... If you have serious links - provide them, but I think that even Hezbollah itself admitted (or at least hasn't claimed otherwise) that the soldiers were in Israel's territory, providing false justification for this provocation based on other things.
Yosi

If you are able to find the name of the town they were captured near, any atlas should show you they were inside Lebanon's border.

I find i am not able to post links, but the following might be of interest, if you put http etc at the front and html at the end, and remove spaces etc in the middle.

Atimes dot com backslash atimes backslash Middle undesrcore East backslash HG15Ak02

What really happened all one word dotcom backslash hezbollah underscore soldiers

Hindustantimes dot com backslash news backslash 181_1742306 dot 00050004

Forbes dot com backslash technology backslash feeds baskslash ap backslash 2006/07/12 baskslash ap2873051

English dotbna dot .bh backslash ?ID=47348

News dot monsters and critics all one word dot com backslash middleeast backslash article underscore 1180404 dot php backslash Hezbollah underscore back underscore in underscore the underscore spotlight underscore after underscore capturing underscore soldiers


A site called what really happenned, huh?

google this : "Where were the Israeli soldiers when captured Aljazeera", the first link, should be the official report of Al Jazeera, which is, though Arabic source, a serious media and news source.

first link is Al Jazeera, dated 28 july, only reference in the article is:The Israeli military offensive began after Hezbollah fighters captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid in early July.

It doesnt say who crossed the borders, are you able to direct me to an article that states Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel?

Well, since nobody thought it'll be such big deal, they refer to it as the "border", but you have this :
" The Lebanese group said on Wednesday that it had captured the pair to secure the release of detainees held in Israeli prisons.



'In order to fulfil a promise to free the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance captured at 9:05am two Israeli soldiers at the borders with occupied Palestine,' Hezbollah said referring to its military wing. "
Indicating that Hezbollah itself didn't clearly mentioned that the soldiers crossed into Lebanon, and the justification seems to be the "Occupied Palestine".

Later on you have "Hezbollah said it had destroyed an Israeli tank that had entered Lebanon after its cross-border raid, inflicting casualties on its crew."
where its (in its cross border raid) refers to Hezbollah, correct me if I'm wrong...

" The Hezbollah attack coincided with a two-week-old Israeli raid in the Gaza Strip, ordered partly in retaliation for the abduction of a soldier by Palestinian fighters last month from a border post. "

The Hezbollah ATTACK, implying they initiated the incidents.

And remember it's Al-Jazeera, which in some passages I brought quoted Lebanese and Hezbollah members. Hezbollah doesn't deny that it first initiated the attack crossing into Israel - doesn't it raise some questions regarding what you think that "really happenned"?

Just to make sure you got the right link, because I now noticed the date you stated isn't the one in my page - Here is the full story:

"Hezbollah captures Israeli soldiers


Wednesday 12 July 2006, 17:27 Makka Time, 14:27 GMT


Israeli forces are searching for the missing soldier in Lebanon





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Hezbollah has captured two Israeli soldiers during cross-border clashes, prompting Israel to carry out a ground and air assault that has killed at least two Lebanese civilians.





The Lebanese group said on Wednesday that it had captured the pair to secure the release of detainees held in Israeli prisons.



"In order to fulfil a promise to free the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance captured at 9:05am two Israeli soldiers at the borders with occupied Palestine," Hezbollah said referring to its military wing.



"The two prisoners were moved to a safe place," it said.



The Syria-backed group "expressed readiness to start a process of negotiations for a prisoner exchange deal with Israel", a Lebanese political source said.



Hezbollah refused to comment but its leader, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, will announce the group's position at a news conference in coming days.



Hezbollah, the only Lebanese faction to retain its weapons after the 1975-90 civil war, is also a political party with 14 members of parliament and two cabinet ministers.



'Act of war'



The Israeli defence ministry confirmed the kidnapping and said it held the Lebanese government "directly responsible" for their fate and safe return.



Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, convened an emergency meeting of cabinet ministers for 7pm (1600 GMT) and said that those who tried to test Israel's resolve would "pay a heavy price".



He described the kidnapping as an "act of war" as he promised a "very painful and far-reaching" response.



Israel retaliates


Lebanese security sources said Israeli aircraft retaliated to the kidnapping and earlier cross-border attacks by Hezbollah by bombing three bridges in south Lebanon.



Two Lebanese civilians were killed and five people wounded in the strikes, Lebanese security sources said.



Separately, the Israeli medical rescue service Zaka said three Israelis were killed and eight wounded in the Hezbollah attacks.



The identities of the casualties were not immediately known.



Hezbollah said it had destroyed an Israeli tank that had entered Lebanon after its cross-border raid, inflicting casualties on its crew.



Aljazeera television said seven Israelis had been killed in Wednesday's border violence.



Lebanese security officials put the toll at six, saying three Israeli soldiers were killed in the morning raid during which the two soldiers were captured, and that three other soldiers died when their tank exploded on the border.



Ground assault




Meanwhile, Israel's army radio reported that ground forces had entered Lebanon to search for the missing soldiers.



Israel's Channel 10 television said a reserve infantry division had been mobilised and was expected to be sent to Israel's northern border with Lebanon.



Israeli troops have not struck deep into Lebanon since they withdrew from a southern border strip in 2000 after waging an 18-year war with Hezbollah's Shia fighters.



International condemnation



The US assistant secretary of state, David Welch, on a visit to Egypt, told reporters that the capture of the soldiers, if confirmed, was "a very dangerous escalation".



"We call for the release of those who have been captured if, as we understand, the news is true," he said.



Britain's foreign office minister, Kim Howells, said: "We call on all parties to take actions to promote a rapid and peaceful resolution of the crisis and urge that any Israeli action be both measured and proportionate."



The UN envoy to Lebanon, Geir Pedersen, called on Hezbollah to release the soldiers and urged all parties to "exercise maximum restraint and avoid any further escalation".



Palestinian connection




The Hezbollah attack coincided with a two-week-old Israeli raid in the Gaza Strip, ordered partly in retaliation for the abduction of a soldier by Palestinian fighters last month from a border post.



Osama Hamdan, the spokesman of Hamas in Lebanon, said Wednesday's kidnapping strengthened the position of his Palestinian movement.



"We have proven to this enemy that the one option is the release of Palestinian, Lebanese and Arab captives. All captives, without exception," Hamdan told Aljazeera television.



Hamdan said they may be "co-ordination and an understanding" between Hamas and Hezbollah, suggesting they might act together over their demands.

"

" Israeli forces are searching for the missing soldier in Lebanon





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"

Isn't part of the main thread, it's related to a picture on the side...

Lebanon. Its funny, people saying this is a war against Hezbollah and not Lebanon. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Lebonese forced to flee their homes, or the families of the 600 deceased, many of whom were children. Oh yes, its a shame innocents are being killed, but hey, it happens right? Its ok to contravene the Geneva convention whenever we want, isn't it? I wonder if this attitude would be different if the 600 were Americans, or Britons, or Israelis. Or is it just Arabs who only qualify as 'collateral damage'? Maybe someone can justify the bombing of Refugees leaving the South after the Israelis had specifically told these people to leave their villages. Maybe someone can explain why red cross ambulances, clearly marked, have been attacked. Maybe someone can explain why, despite being told 10 times to stop shelling a UN position that had been there for years IDF aircraft felt the need to drop a bomb on it killing 4 UN soldiers. Maybe someone can explain why, if Hezbollah is being targeted, christian towns in the North have been attacked.
Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on
Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two
Israeli soldiers IN southern Lebanon.

"Implementing
our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails,
our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in
southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said.

"The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe
place," it added.

The Lebanese police said that the
two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into
the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
'

2. TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police
force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese
territory, in the area of Aďta Al-Chaab close to the
border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they
had been captured in Israeli territory.

Forbes.com had a piece on July 12, the day of the
incident:
'The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli
soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border IN
southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from
Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to
look for them.

The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors
from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli
government officials said on condition of anonymity.

The Israeli military would not confirm the report.'

The Forbes report isn't clear regarding where did it happenned. Notice the ACROSS THE BORDER, refering to the other side of the border in south Lebanon...

The first source, reports clearly on similiar events as Al Jazeera, but it changed some main things in the report - " guerrillas have captured two
Israeli soldiers IN southern Lebanon. " versus Al Jazeera's "Hezbollah has captured two Israeli soldiers during cross-border clashes".
Even when quoting the Hezbollah source, there is a difference : "Implementing
our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails,
our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in
southern Lebanon," versus "In order to fulfil a promise to free the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance captured at 9:05am two Israeli soldiers at the borders with occupied Palestine,".

Now, if you expect me to believe that it's Al Jazeera who made the changes in quotings, to make the situation appear more comfortable to Israel, and that your source is the accurate one, then we're at a dead end. I brought Al Jazeera on purpose, exactly to show that even in the serious Arab world, your theory has no backing.

" Lebanon. Its funny, people saying this is a war against Hezbollah and not Lebanon. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Lebonese forced to flee their homes, or the families of the 600 deceased, many of whom were children. "

The war on terror is both against the terrorist organizations, and against the countries harbouring them. This was the early line of Israel, untill the US pressured Israel to back off the front directly against Lebanon. But even so, Israel will not let Hezbollah's hiding behind civilians tactics to spare them the response, so against military surprise factors, it announced to the civilian population exactly where it's going to attack Hezbollah next. If Israel has targetted civilians - why bother giving them warnings allowing hundreds of thousands to escape? The innocent population there pays the price of their government's inability to control Hezbollah, just like the Afghanis paid the price of their government support of Al Qaeda (before you hang on that difference - remember that the Taliban announced it's willing to try Bin Laden before the US led war.)

" I wonder if this attitude would be different if the 600 were Americans, or Britons, or Israelis. Or is it just Arabs who only qualify as 'collateral damage'? "

It won't happen to Americans Britons and Israelis because they live in a normal state, that is not harbouring terrorists, and can fight terrorists operating from theri territories.

" Maybe someone can explain why red cross ambulances, clearly marked, have been attacked. "

I haven't heard about that, but if it's correct, then it should be investigated. I haven't heard reports that Hezbollah is specifically using red cross marks to give its weapons shipments some protection either, but I won't be surprised if they do. But as I said, I don't know these reports so I can't relate.

" Maybe someone can explain why red cross ambulances, clearly marked, have been attacked. Maybe someone can explain why, despite being told 10 times to stop shelling a UN position that had been there for years IDF aircraft felt the need to drop a bomb on it killing 4 UN soldiers. "

I heard about this incident, it's being investigated by the IDF, like it should in such situations. And I want to remind you that several Hezbollah's Katyushas have also hit UN outposts. I'm sure they didn't target them too (and neither the Israeli Arabs their rockets killed) but that just goes to show you, that war has a price, and mistakes happen, even in the other side.

" Maybe someone can explain why, if Hezbollah is being targeted, christian towns in the North have been attacked. "

Hezbollah is using civilian lives and property as human shield, though I haven't heard about civilian houses attacked in the north of Lebanon, I can say that the houses attacked in the south are houses used as warehouses for their rockets.

" is this the same al-jazeera considered the mouthpeice of the united states by middle eastern right wingers? "

Though not sure what mouthpeice means, Al Jazeera is biased against Israel and the west, if anything. Exactly the "serious station" that you would expect that will back the claims that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon, if it was raised by Hezbollah or any main player...

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

" The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer. "

That just goes to show how sick is Lebanon. Hezbollah will hopefully collapse after this round.

" But this claim is almost always false. fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been. "

The Hezbollah fighters have many roles - if you talk about the guerillas attacking the Israeli forces that entered Lebanon - so yes, they don't mingle, but you have the rocket firing squads, which usually store and fire the rockets from civilian concentrations, which Israel ordered that should be evicted, to avoid collateral damage when hitting the rocket firing squads, and you have the huge logistic complex that maintains the military wing in southern Lebanon, which use the roads and bridges that were bombed, traveling in civilian looking transportation etc. Israel announced it has killed over 200 of the gurerillas, and destroyed hundreds of rockets and rocket launchers throughout Lebanon.

" For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too."

Every Hezbollah facility is a target, and Israel warned the civilian population before operating there - so what's the meaning of these warnings if Israel's goal is to kill civilians in hope of getting militants too? The militants know about the planned attacks too...

" In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist? "

One needs to fire rockets, to get his house targetted, or to be high ranking member of Hezbollah, or member of Hezbollah's military wing to become a target. The innocent population that wasn't evacuated from the territories the IDF announced aren't targets, but they are risking getting hit when the IDF targets the above targets, located close to them.

" In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. "

Lebanon as a state should be punished. Israel withdrew from that line after American appeal to do so, but it doesn't exhonerate the Lebanese government, who was unable to do what Israel is forced to do in its territories - and that is, to control and even destroy Hezbollah, if needed.

" ah, you're thinking of the fictional al-jazeera from the american news. "

No, perhaps I'm thinking of the fictional Al Jazeera from the Israeli news, which also invites their reporters to understand the Arab media perspective on the conflict - and it's not favorable to Israel...

" they each consider al-jazeera biased towards the other. "

Being biased is one thing, misquoting is another...

Facts are something you you wouldn't recognise if they spat in your face neothe1 you vile, despicable traitor, go away and spend your shill blood money and contemplate the screams of all those innocent victims in the twin towers whom you try to deny posthumous justice.

yosi
the warnings given to the Lebanese living in the south were very much in tune with the warnings given to those living in the poorer areas of New Orleans. All very well if you have the financial means to just pack up the kids and grandma and get on a bus out of town. And of course all the hospitals in New Orleans were given ambulances to assist in the evacuation of their patients huh, so that those patients left behind to die were as a result of their own silly fault, and the dead people on the sidewalk died because they didnt heed the warnings, and the children sexually assaulted in the sports arena (the designated "safe" place, that was also their own fault for not taking note of the warnings?

whats the point in giving people warnings to flee if you have destroyed their ability to do so? Also, their have been instances when the Israeli's have ordered people tyo flee and then promptly bombed the refugee columns, knowuing exactly what they were doing.
Ad Yosi, dont tell me that the IDF are 'investigating'. All that will happen is that there will be a white wash, just like when the IDF officer shot that british lad in the west bank ferrying children to safety. Israel is turning itself into a pariah state.
"of course it's not favourable to isreal. they're supposed to report the facts. "

That's exactly what I said...

" yosi
the warnings given to the Lebanese living in the south were very much in tune with the warnings given to those living in the poorer areas of New Orleans. All very well if you have the financial means to just pack up the kids and grandma and get on a bus out of town. And of course all the hospitals in New Orleans were given ambulances to assist in the evacuation of their patients huh, so that those patients left behind to die were as a result of their own silly fault, and the dead people on the sidewalk died because they didnt heed the warnings, and the children sexually assaulted in the sports arena (the designated "safe" place, that was also their own fault for not taking note of the warnings? "

First, it's not Israel who should take care of the civilian evacuation there. The Lebanese government, or Hezbollah or whoever that controls these regions should have taken care of it. How is it, that there is no humanitarian crisis in Israel, despite the fact that about a million Israelis fled the northern territories or live in the shelters there for over 2 weeks? Did Israel demanded Hezbollah to take care of its citizens?

" Also, their have been instances when the Israeli's have ordered people tyo flee and then promptly bombed the refugee columns, knowuing exactly what they were doing. "

I don't think that Israel attacks those who get out of southern Lebanon, only Hezbollah movements etc., which is usually going southwards...

" whats the point in giving people warnings to flee if you have destroyed their ability to do so? "

If you can't escape through the bridges and roads, that's still not good enough reasons to stay where the IDF anounced it's going to bomb. Again, if Israel's policy was to bomb civilians - why warning them anyway?

" Ad Yosi, dont tell me that the IDF are 'investigating'. All that will happen is that there will be a white wash, just like when the IDF officer shot that british lad in the west bank ferrying children to safety. Israel is turning itself into a pariah state. "

I haven't heard what happenned with the British investigation of your troops' toture of Iraqis - It means that either your "investigation" was a whitewash too, or that the media doesn't report the outcomes of these investigations, at least not the same way it published the incidents. I know that the 2nd option is the one suitable to Israel's military (and Britain's too).

'I haven't heard what happenned with the British investigation of your troops' toture of Iraqis - It means that either your "investigation" was a whitewash too, or that the media doesn't report the outcomes of these investigations, at least not the same way it published the incidents. I know that the 2nd option is the one suitable to Israel's military (and Britain's too).'

Whats your point? I dont support the Iraq war, nor the torture of Iraqis. The Blair govt are wankers who have prosided over a number of white washers concerning the Iraq war. I'll admit it. I dont see how that removes my right to comment

My source for the attacks on refugee columns was the 'Independent', a paper not known for lying. Israel is warning civilians because it would look bad internationally if it didn't. This does not negate the fact that they are killing civilians and seemingly dont give a shit when they do. The Israelis have already said that they basically bomb civilians because hezbollah 'hide' amongst the civilians. So its ok to destroy entire blocks of flats just to kill a few men? And if they only bomb hezbollah movements then why are IDF wearplanes attacking the UN and the Red cross? Why, if the IDF is told 10 times that they are attacking the UN does the Israeli military then decide to drop a bomb on the position? Hezbollah are hitting the UN aswell? Dont you think the Israeli govt should place itself on a higher moral plane than heezbollah?

'If you can't escape through the bridges and roads, that's still not good enough reasons to stay where the IDF anounced it's going to bomb'

Thats absurd. The Israelis have told hundreds of thousands of Lebonese to move north of the Litani River. Thats hundreds, maybe thousands of sq miles of land classed as 'fair game'. Even ambulances are being attacked. If you blow up all the bridges across the river and destroy the roads leading North, how do the people get north of the river?

" Whats your point? I dont support the Iraq war, nor the torture of Iraqis. The Blair govt are wankers who have prosided over a number of white washers concerning the Iraq war. I'll admit it. I dont see how that removes my right to comment "

You only hear about the incidents, not the results of the investigations, therefore you assume it's a whitewash. Either in your country, and in Israel's.

" My source for the attacks on refugee columns was the 'Independent', a paper not known for lying. "

Did it brought the IDF comments on that attack - or maybe it didn't bothered? I can't explain every incident you read about in your papers, and that I haven't heard about it specifically, and just for that, whenever a paper publishes such allegations against the IDF, one would expect to find response to it by the IDF - so was one given? If not, maybe the independent doesn't worth the crowns you offer it.

" Israel is warning civilians because it would look bad internationally if it didn't. This does not negate the fact that they are killing civilians and seemingly dont give a shit when they do. "

Do you hear yourself - Israel behaves, but only does so for the sake of the international community. It doesn't matter, the fact is that warnings are given, in contradiction to the theory that Israel wants to hurt civilians.

" The Israelis have already said that they basically bomb civilians because hezbollah 'hide' amongst the civilians. "

We bomb wherever the terrorists operate from, and the local population there was given a warning that it's exactly what we're going to do.

" So its ok to destroy entire blocks of flats just to kill a few men? And if they only bomb hezbollah movements then why are IDF wearplanes attacking the UN and the Red cross? "

If Katyushas are being fired from there, yes. As Israeli citizen, I'm entitled to defence against rockets, and Israel will betray my trust if it hadn't operated against them. That said, to minimize collateral damage, Israel warned the local population there. As for the UN, the specific case is in investigation, but there were numerous times in which terrorist organizations used the UN and red cross as human shields too, for example, transporting weapons via ambulances in the west bank and Gaza.

" Hezbollah are hitting the UN aswell? Dont you think the Israeli govt should place itself on a higher moral plane than heezbollah? "

Sure it does, and it's in higher moral ground than Hezbollah, but both sides are fighting war, in which the practice of it, not always enable to ensure that every bomb reaches its intended spot. The difference between Israel and Hezbollah is that Hezbollah only apologizes when hitting Arab Israelis, meaning that they aimed at Jewish Israelis at the first place.

" Thats absurd. The Israelis have told hundreds of thousands of Lebonese to move north of the Litani River. Thats hundreds, maybe thousands of sq miles of land classed as 'fair game'. Even ambulances are being attacked. If you blow up all the bridges across the river and destroy the roads leading North, how do the people get north of the river? "

Boats, temporal bridges, whatever. if the Lebanese government, and even Hezbollah can't organizae that, then the citizens there should be concernet about what country they have... And I don't believe that they'll be attacked if they distance themselves from terrorist operation places in southern Lebanon. The warnings are more specific than what you described.

‘Did it brought the IDF comments on that attack - or maybe it didn't bothered? I can't explain every incident you read about in your papers, and that I haven't heard about it specifically, and just for that, whenever a paper publishes such allegations against the IDF, one would expect to find response to it by the IDF - so was one given? If not, maybe the independent doesn't worth the crowns you offer it.’

Yes, it did. It said that the attacks would be ‘investigated’ and that civilian deaths are ‘unfortunate’.

‘Do you hear yourself - Israel behaves, but only does so for the sake of the international community. It doesn't matter, the fact is that warnings are given, in contradiction to the theory that Israel wants to hurt civilians.’
‘We bomb wherever the terrorists operate from, and the local population there was given a warning that it's exactly what we're going to do.’


How is Israel behaving itself? It is warning civilians to leave and then attacking them when they do. How is that classed as behaving?

’If Katyushas are being fired from there, yes. As Israeli citizen, I'm entitled to defence against rockets, and Israel will betray my trust if it hadn't operated against them. That said, to minimize collateral damage, Israel warned the local population there. As for the UN, the specific case is in investigation, but there were numerous times in which terrorist organizations used the UN and red cross as human shields too, for example, transporting weapons via ambulances in the west bank and Gaza.’

Israel has betrayed your trust by putting you in more danger. For every m,ilitant killed 10 have taken his place because of the actions of the IDF. The UN position had been there for 30 years, the Israelis knew it was there, there is no excuse for those attacks, nor on the IRC.

So basically, even the red cross has been compromised in the eyes of Israel. The attacks on Northern Israel are evil, but Israel have killed 750 lebonese people by its actions, most were women, children and the elderly. It is not proportionate and it is not justifiable. The only people who think that it is Israelis like yourself, some ministers in the Brit govt and the US president. Practicaly the entire world is outraged at what has happened. Believe me, all the actions of Israel has done is increase the international opposition it faces and radicalized the Lebanese people.

’Boats, temporal bridges, whatever. if the Lebanese government, and even Hezbollah can't organizae that, then the citizens there should be concernet about what country they have... And I don't believe that they'll be attacked if they distance themselves from terrorist operation places in southern Lebanon. The warnings are more specific than what you described.’

They are being attacked, and if the media in your country is too nationalistic and keeps pumping out the propaganda then maybe you should be concerned about what a country you have. The Israelis have attacked Beirut and the Christian north. The road north is littered with burnt out civilian vehicles that have been hit by jets. People have been warned to leave, then attacked when they have. Basically the civilians are being targeted whether they leave or not. 34 children, as well as 33 others, have just been killed in Qana, and all Israel’s reaction has been is to shrug its shoulders and point the finger at Hezbollah. The Israeli govt announced a 48 hour ceasefire and yet in the last hour have broken it. They have also refused permission from the UN to send an aid convoy south. This is terrorism, plain and simple.

" How is Israel behaving itself? It is warning civilians to leave and then attacking them when they do. How is that classed as behaving? "

You classed it as behaving, I refered to that - "Israel is warning civilians because it would look bad internationally if it didn't." meaning that the warning is correct behaviour.

" Israel has betrayed your trust by putting you in more danger. For every m,ilitant killed 10 have taken his place because of the actions of the IDF. The UN position had been there for 30 years, the Israelis knew it was there, there is no excuse for those attacks, nor on the IRC. "

That sort of attitude is exactly betraying my trust, even if 10 militants arose after Israel kills one, that's no excuse not to protect innocent Israelis from terrorist attacks. And you should really review that "10 others will follow" theory, because currently, Palestinian terrorist organizations in the west bank couldn't fully recover from Israel's operations in 2002 and the ongoing pressure since. Terror can be eliminated.

" It is not proportionate and it is not justifiable."

Proportionate implies that for example, if 20 israelis are killed it's OK to kill 40 Lebanese but not 400. Israel doesn't work like that, instead it does every efforst to minimize to nothing the damage to its population, while trying to do so with minimal damage to innocent Lebanese population. The Hezbollah combat style dictates numerous civilian casualities, in order to stop them - and indeed, for example, no rocket has been fired on Haifa for the last 2 or 3 days...

" Believe me, all the actions of Israel has done is increase the international opposition it faces and radicalized the Lebanese people. "

If the Lebanese people choose to support Hezbollah, rather than stop them, they'll be treated accordingly. I've heard the Lebanese PM, changing position and rejecting any conditions to the cease fire. It's exactly what you describe, but it's still irrelevant as Israel tries to ensure the safety of its citizens. If the Lebanese come to their senses, and do their job - disarming Hezbollah, than Israel will stop doing that for them by this conflict, but Israel will not cease earlier that that, or untill after Hezbollah is disarmed.

" They are being attacked, and if the media in your country is too nationalistic and keeps pumping out the propaganda then maybe you should be concerned about what a country you have. "

I'm aware of over 500 Lebanese deaths, the attack at the UN outpost, the Kefar Qana incident, the refugees etc. all from the Israeli media. I'm not concerned, and I'm sure that refugees aren't targetted.

" Israel’s reaction has been is to shrug its shoulders and point the finger at Hezbollah. "

What do you expect, we stand behind the statement that mistakes happen in wars, and innocents do get hurt. I don't view that incident as different just because more innocent Lebanese were killed this time. And how come there aren't any "major" incidents like this getting refugees? As I said, the innocents who were killed shouldn't have been there. If they were on the road, obeying the IDF warnings, than it would be something else.

" The Israeli govt announced a 48 hour ceasefire and yet in the last hour have broken it. They have also refused permission from the UN to send an aid convoy south. This is terrorism, plain and simple. "

I've just got an update from the Israeli media, from a government minister regarding the purpose of the 48 hours cease fire, and it's exactly to allow for every Lebanese who don't want to serve as human shield for Hezbollah to advance north of the Litanni river. Just to be clear, the cease fire means that the IDF "won't attack immobilized targets through that time", meaning no buildings. Just in case your media didn't brought all that information to you...

‘You classed it as behaving, I refered to that - "Israel is warning civilians because it would look bad internationally if it didn't." meaning that the warning is correct behaviour.’

No, if Israel dropped the leaflets and then specifically targeted Hezbollah that would be correct. Dropping leaflets and then bombing the refugees as they leave the villages, attacking ambulances and the UN, and then saying ‘nothing to do with us guv, we dropped leaflets’ is not behaving correctly.

‘That sort of attitude is exactly betraying my trust, even if 10 militants arose after Israel kills one, that's no excuse not to protect innocent Israelis from terrorist attacks. And you should really review that "10 others will follow" theory, because currently, Palestinian terrorist organizations in the west bank couldn't fully recover from Israel's operations in 2002 and the ongoing pressure since. Terror can be eliminated.’

Hezbollah is not Hamas. The best way to eliminate terror is to free the west bank and withdraw completely from Lebanon. That way not only would Israel instantly gain support from almost every nation in the worlds, it would also heap pressure on Syria, Iran, the Palestinians and Hezbollah. But the Israelis wont do this because the real agenda of the Israeli right is to keep hold of the occupied lands.


’Proportionate implies that for example, if 20 israelis are killed it's OK to kill 40 Lebanese but not 400. Israel doesn't work like that, instead it does every efforst to minimize to nothing the damage to its population, while trying to do so with minimal damage to innocent Lebanese population. The Hezbollah combat style dictates numerous civilian casualities, in order to stop them - and indeed, for example, no rocket has been fired on Haifa for the last 2 or 3 days...‘

No, proportionate to me means you specifically target the mobile rocket platforms, not blow up bridges, water and sewage works, the international airport, tower blocks, red cross ambulances, refugee columns, etc…

’If the Lebanese people choose to support Hezbollah, rather than stop them, they'll be treated accordingly. I've heard the Lebanese PM, changing position and rejecting any conditions to the cease fire. It's exactly what you describe, but it's still irrelevant as Israel tries to ensure the safety of its citizens. If the Lebanese come to their senses, and do their job - disarming Hezbollah, than Israel will stop doing that for them by this conflict, but Israel will not cease earlier that that, or untill after Hezbollah is disarmed.’

The Lebanese PM is changing his position because every day sees more of his people murdered, more destruction. All Israel is doing is ensuring that it will have to pay a blood price for decades more. There was a struggle within the Lebanese govt prior to this between pro-West and pro-Syria/Hezbollah. The struggle could have been won, Israel couls have had a friend North of the border. Now Israel has united the opposition against her, and lost the respect of the world. It will be very hard to win it back.

’I'm aware of over 500 Lebanese deaths, the attack at the UN outpost, the Kefar Qana incident, the refugees etc. all from the Israeli media. I'm not concerned, and I'm sure that refugees aren't targetted.’

Its over 750 deaths actually, a third of whom are children.

’What do you expect, we stand behind the statement that mistakes happen in wars, and innocents do get hurt. I don't view that incident as different just because more innocent Lebanese were killed this time. And how come there aren't any "major" incidents like this getting refugees? As I said, the innocents who were killed shouldn't have been there. If they were on the road, obeying the IDF warnings, than it would be something else.’

If they were on the road the chances are they would be attacked anyway, hence why they stay in their basements. If even the ambulances of the IRC aren’t safe, what chance do they have?

‘I've just got an update from the Israeli media, from a government minister regarding the purpose of the 48 hours cease fire, and it's exactly to allow for every Lebanese who don't want to serve as human shield for Hezbollah to advance north of the Litanni river. Just to be clear, the cease fire means that the IDF "won't attack immobilized targets through that time", meaning no buildings. Just in case your media didn't brought all that information to you...’

Well personally I’ll believe the BBC. Either way, the IDF have said that all civilians should move north, yet only guaranteed they will not attack ‘immobilized targets’. So what guarantee have they got that they also wont be blown to pieces by IDF F-15’s?

" Hezbollah is not Hamas. The best way to eliminate terror is to free the west bank and withdraw completely from Lebanon. That way not only would Israel instantly gain support from almost every nation in the worlds, it would also heap pressure on Syria, Iran, the Palestinians and Hezbollah. But the Israelis wont do this because the real agenda of the Israeli right is to keep hold of the occupied lands. "

Israel has completely withdrawn from Lebanon, yet Hezbollah didn't disarmed itself. And the world doesn't support Israel's attempt to do this for him. Surrendering to terror is not the answer.

" No, proportionate to me means you specifically target the mobile rocket platforms, not blow up bridges, water and sewage works, the international airport, tower blocks, red cross ambulances, refugee columns, etc… "

That's being accurate, not proportionate. As for the infrastructure that allows Hezbollah to rearm itself - like airport and bridges, these are all legitimate targets, just like they were in WWII, and provided moral umbrella to the killing of hundreds of thousands of Germans that resulted because the RAF wasn't so accurate too.

" The Lebanese PM is changing his position because every day sees more of his people murdered, more destruction. All Israel is doing is ensuring that it will have to pay a blood price for decades more. There was a struggle within the Lebanese govt prior to this between pro-West and pro-Syria/Hezbollah. The struggle could have been won, Israel couls have had a friend North of the border. Now Israel has united the opposition against her, and lost the respect of the world. It will be very hard to win it back. "

Israel will not wait for others to decide to take measures to defend Israel. If the Lebanese won't come to their senses, they might find the IDF doing their work permanantly, from within the territories they mistakenly thought as being under their sovereignity. And with the ranges of the new Hezbollah rockets, the security zone painted on the map in the image on this ballot, will extend pretty much up to the end of the frame.

" Its over 750 deaths actually, a third of whom are children. "

Maybe your count includes the Hezbollah casualities rate.

"If they were on the road the chances are they would be attacked anyway, hence why they stay in their basements. If even the ambulances of the IRC aren’t safe, what chance do they have? "

I don't see any situation in which Israel attacks convoys going northwards, rather than southwards, possibly to reinforce Hezbollah.

" Well personally I’ll believe the BBC. "

The same BBC that hasn't yet anounced that the real death toll in the 2002 Jenin events was 25 rather than 500. Pretty good source you have there.

" Either way, the IDF have said that all civilians should move north, yet only guaranteed they will not attack ‘immobilized targets’. So what guarantee have they got that they also wont be blown to pieces by IDF F-15’s? "

Yeah, I don't think that automatically suggests the IDF will attack every person moving north, but rather gives the population another 48 hours to evict their homes in southern Lebanon. And just to be clear about it, if it haven't been that way so far : after the 48 hours, you agree taht every civilian disobeying the IDF orders to leave his home puts himself in danger, far greater than he would experience if he obeyed the IDF orders?

‘That's being accurate, not proportionate. As for the infrastructure that allows Hezbollah to rearm itself - like airport and bridges, these are all legitimate targets, just like they were in WWII, and provided moral umbrella to the killing of hundreds of thousands of Germans that resulted because the RAF wasn't so accurate too.’

World War II is not an accurate comparison. Britain was at war with an industrialized militaristic state, not a terrorist organization. The battlefireld spanned the world, the Wermacht numbered millions and were utterly dependent on the munitions being pumped out by the vast industrial complex of Germany. It was a war to liberate an entire continent, not two soldiers. And the Raf didn’t have F-16 jets armed with smart bombs that can be directed right to the target. They had Lancasters and only rudimentary aiming equipment. Whever Israel is criticized you always make this comparison. As I have explained before, I do not see this as appropriate.

’Israel will not wait for others to decide to take measures to defend Israel. If the Lebanese won't come to their senses, they might find the IDF doing their work permanantly, from within the territories they mistakenly thought as being under their sovereignity. And with the ranges of the new Hezbollah rockets, the security zone painted on the map in the image on this ballot, will extend pretty much up to the end of the frame.‘

Yes, why doesn’t Israel take over the entire middle East? Isn’t that what the far right in Israel has always wanted? The only way Israel will ever have peace is if it withdraws from all the occupied territories. You may say that the current conflict has nothing to do with this, but it does. Apart from being the right thing to do, it is the only way to unite the world behind Israel and place all the pressure on the Arabs. Israel cannot do whatever it wishes in the face of popular world opinion because all this will do ultimately is alienate her from the international community.

’Maybe your count includes the Hezbollah casualities rate.’

Yes, you are right, those children in Qana were probably Hezbollah…

’I don't see any situation in which Israel attacks convoys going northwards, rather than southwards, possibly to reinforce Hezbollah.’

So the international red cross is lying? The refugee columns that were bombed were heading north. And as for ‘possibly to reinforce hezbollah’, that is the point isn’t it, the Israelis don’t know who is Hezbollah and who isn’t, so they bomb everything and hope for the best. Shoot first ask questions later.

’The same BBC that hasn't yet anounced that the real death toll in the 2002 Jenin events was 25 rather than 500. Pretty good source you have there.’

Perhaps it did get it wrong, but then it was an Israeli officer who began the controversy by announcing that hundreds had died. It’s a shame actually, because it overshadows what many believe was a war crime, even if the death toll was in actuality 52. When every news source, without fail, has described the utter tragedy that is happening in Lebanon, I have no reason to doubt the BBC.

’Yeah, I don't think that automatically suggests the IDF will attack every person moving north, but rather gives the population another 48 hours to evict their homes in southern Lebanon. And just to be clear about it, if it haven't been that way so far : after the 48 hours, you agree taht every civilian disobeying the IDF orders to leave his home puts himself in danger, far greater than he would experience if he obeyed the IDF orders?’

No, I don’t see how this is legitimate because not everyone can get out. I was reading the daily mail yesterday and watching ITN news, which is the news on the main commercial broadcaster in the UK, ITV, and they said that many people left in S.Lebanon were the old and infirm who couldn’t get out, who were in no fit state to move let alone negotiate the Litani river. Are you saying its their own fault if they get killed?

I understand that Israel wants to stop the rockets, I understand she wants her soldiers back. What I am saying is that the brutal manner in which these goals are being pursued are counter productive and not worthy of a democratic state like Israel.

" World War II is not an accurate comparison. Britain was at war with an industrialized militaristic state, not a terrorist organization. The battlefireld spanned the world, the Wermacht numbered millions and were utterly dependent on the munitions being pumped out by the vast industrial complex of Germany. It was a war to liberate an entire continent, not two soldiers. And the Raf didn’t have F-16 jets armed with smart bombs that can be directed right to the target. They had Lancasters and only rudimentary aiming equipment. Whever Israel is criticized you always make this comparison. As I have explained before, I do not see this as appropriate. "

In the end it all comes to the innocent German citizen and the Lebanese citizen - why is it the German's fault that Britain decided to liberate the continent, or that the Whermacht was dependent on arms being pumped to its forces?
The argument against te attacks is exactly that - 'what is the Lebanese fault?' not that Israel does whatever it can to win this war, because people understand that just because you're much more powerful than your enemy, it doesn't mean that you have to fight him with his level of weapons.

" Yes, why doesn’t Israel take over the entire middle East? Isn’t that what the far right in Israel has always wanted? "

Because the rest of the middle east is held by governments who control the armed forces operating from within their territories. And the right wing in Israel is the one who signed the first peace agreement, with the arch-enemy of Israel - Egypt.

" The only way Israel will ever have peace is if it withdraws from all the occupied territories. You may say that the current conflict has nothing to do with this, but it does. Apart from being the right thing to do, it is the only way to unite the world behind Israel and place all the pressure on the Arabs. Israel cannot do whatever it wishes in the face of popular world opinion because all this will do ultimately is alienate her from the international community. "

Perhaps they didn't tell you - but before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs still wanted to destroy Israel, but after the 1967 the goal has changed to merely reclaiming the land these countries viewed as theirs - Egypt's Sinai and the Syrian Golan. Problem is, that the Palestinians view all of Israel's territories as part of Palestine. Israel will evacuate territories only for total and obliging peace agreement, that will ensure that the government will prevent terrorism from its territories. If the world won't back Israel in this effort to teach the Arabs how things go in the modern world, and that terrorism will bring them nothing other than more suffering, than Israel will teach them that lesson alone.

" Yes, you are right, those children in Qana were probably Hezbollah… "

The children are included in the 500 dead Lebanese citizens count.

" And as for ‘possibly to reinforce hezbollah’, that is the point isn’t it, the Israelis don’t know who is Hezbollah and who isn’t, so they bomb everything and hope for the best. Shoot first ask questions later. "

Don't underestimate the Israeli intelligence, we're hitting Hezbollah targets much more than the misses that you hear about, as a result of the propeganda Hezbollah spreads.

" Perhaps it did get it wrong, but then it was an Israeli officer who began the controversy by announcing that hundreds had died. It’s a shame actually, because it overshadows what many believe was a war crime, even if the death toll was in actuality 52. When every news source, without fail, has described the utter tragedy that is happening in Lebanon, I have no reason to doubt the BBC. "

Don't roll it on the Israeli officer, the BBC has refused to correct its reports even years after the incident. Regarding the reports - I have heard reports that the reporters in Lebanon are being threatened by Hezbollah, which dictates the content of their reports, and holds their passports - google "Hezbollah foreign reporters"

" No, I don’t see how this is legitimate because not everyone can get out. I was reading the daily mail yesterday and watching ITN news, which is the news on the main commercial broadcaster in the UK, ITV, and they said that many people left in S.Lebanon were the old and infirm who couldn’t get out, who were in no fit state to move let alone negotiate the Litani river. Are you saying its their own fault if they get killed? "

That is war, and not in every war the other side exposes his battle plan to minimize civilian casualities.

" I understand that Israel wants to stop the rockets, I understand she wants her soldiers back. What I am saying is that the brutal manner in which these goals are being pursued are counter productive and not worthy of a democratic state like Israel. "

The concept of state is built upon the principle that the state will protect its citizens, that is the first and most important commitment Israel has to me and the rest of the Israelis. Regarding the method of achieving that - in 2 precedents, your method of surrendering to terror and withdrawing from disputed territories have only caused the terrorist organizations there to become more popular and be able to arm themselves more heavily. Now, the method tried had some successes in the past, and some failures, but its a method that works, and its success depends on the performance of it. For example, Israel returned to control many key points and Palestinian cities in the west bank - and the suicide bombers phenomenon has been almost extinct, on the other hand, Israel didn't entered similiarily to Gaza, so the rocket infrastructure there evolved from dozens of rocket launches per year, to thousands.

ISREAL SHOULD JUST BOMB THE SNOT OUT OF LEBANON

THOSE IMMORAL BASTARDS!

I support the official government of both lsrael and Lebanon. It is the governments that is stuck with rebuilding their state afterward and stuck with the complains of their citizens about it. It is the offical governments of both nations stuck with finding money, budgets for the rebuilding and still plan for the future.

Civilians are getting killed on both sides.. one of the reasons why we try to avoid war. Because each side see the civilians of the other as easy target. Both desperately try to protect them in their own way.

Hezbollah deserve the blame.





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